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Old 10-24-2013, 11:07 AM   #1326
Thingyman
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Re: Battle of Hyrdas Werewolf Game

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Originally Posted by Klairic View Post
I'm getting super suspicious of people trying to maneuver where the voting goes
Alright, well... I say all this only to encourage you to keep going at it and to offer you some sincere advice/feedback (given your read on me, I'm sure you will think that this is me being manipulative or devious or something though)

You're still in the newbie stage. I don't think I've ever actually seen a complete newbie not make the mistake of mainly jumping at things for being wolfy that in reality are signs of villageriness. For example, I just hosted a newbie game on my Danish forum and have hosted several others. The following always happens: The guy who is the most vocal d1 is mislynched. The guy who was the most vocal about getting this person lynched is mislynched d2. I'm not exaggerating or kidding - this happens at least 9/10 times. Newbies are very "reactive" and well, I can't say this without it sounding insulting to a fellow poker play, but also sort of "level 1'ish". They will think that the people posting the most, directing most of the action and calling most aggressively for people's heads are the most wolfy people. But it's almost always the opposite - at least in newbie games. And it makes sense - the wolves are just trying to survive, they have perfect information and they have no incentive to create enemies, whereas villagers have no ****ing clue, are trying to find wolves and will just naturally create enemies because they're frustrated or trying to solve the game.

Of course when you play with more experienced players, they will know that most other people in the game don't read things on level 1 and so they will TRY to actually imitate what gets people lynched in newbie games because these things are considered villagery by experienced players.

So this means that with experienced players what you actually need to look for are one of two things: 1) Are they not showing ANY of the traits that would normally get newbies lynched in newbie games (i.e. stuff that experienced people would call villagery), or 2) Are they showing this unconvincingly - and this can be judged in comparison to that player's previous games or just your general feeling of what the bar is for unconvincing "villagery behavior" based on your previous games.

This was a long and maybe convoluted way of saying: You need to assess what the psychology of a villager is and why they might do certain stuff, and vice versa for wolves.

Or it's another way of saying: People trying to maneuver where the votes should go is not wolfy. For many people, it's in fact villagery (well, depending on the nature of it). For really good players, it's completely role neutral.

Food for thought anyway
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:09 AM   #1327
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Re: Battle of Hyrdas Werewolf Game

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Originally Posted by Klairic View Post
Ok, cool... so you're effectively either a wolf, or playing the game for yourself. Either way, you're not on the village team.

thingy

You have such a good understanding of what makes someone look villagery, that I don't trust things like "oh look, he spent lots of time making a 'meh' post, he MUST be a villager". If anything, the over-villagery when you're playing for yourself doesn't feel right to me.

If you're mis-lynched, I apologize... but you're clearly playing for yourself, so either way you're a liability.
Me not wanting to be mislynched luckily serves the villagery very well.

And I spent the entirety of yesterday trying to solve this game towards meeting that end.

In other words: Me trying not to be mislynched means that I will be putting in great effort to solve the game = good for the village, playing for the village.

If all villagers made sure that they wouldn't get mislynched, the village would win every game.

It's important and good to clear yourself. My motives are actually selfish, sure, but it doesn't matter - I am still, whether I am intending to or not, helping the village a great deal.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:12 AM   #1328
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Re: Battle of Hyrdas Werewolf Game

kruze

really hope mets wasnt trolling

cant really afford to mislynch today
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:15 AM   #1329
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Re: Battle of Hyrdas Werewolf Game

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Originally Posted by SuqAta8 View Post
kruze

really hope mets wasnt trolling

cant really afford to mislynch today
We can't afford to mislynch ever again.

I'm pretty sure we've already lost this game.

I think Klairic is a villager and I fear that we will probably mislynch at least once and that will put us at must lynch where Klairic will vote for me and we will lose the game.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:15 AM   #1330
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Re: Battle of Hydras Werewolf Game

Maybe I shouldn't have said the above, but I'm pretty sure the wolves realized this anyway.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:15 AM   #1331
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Re: Battle of Hyrdas Werewolf Game

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Originally Posted by Thingyman View Post
Alright, well... I say all this only to encourage you to keep going at it and to offer you some sincere advice/feedback (given your read on me, I'm sure you will think that this is me being manipulative or devious or something though)

You're still in the newbie stage. I don't think I've ever actually seen a complete newbie not make the mistake of mainly jumping at things for being wolfy that in reality are signs of villageriness. For example, I just hosted a newbie game on my Danish forum and have hosted several others. The following always happens: The guy who is the most vocal d1 is mislynched. The guy who was the most vocal about getting this person lynched is mislynched d2. I'm not exaggerating or kidding - this happens at least 9/10 times. Newbies are very "reactive" and well, I can't say this without it sounding insulting to a fellow poker play, but also sort of "level 1'ish". They will think that the people posting the most, directing most of the action and calling most aggressively for people's heads are the most wolfy people. But it's almost always the opposite - at least in newbie games. And it makes sense - the wolves are just trying to survive, they have perfect information and they have no incentive to create enemies, whereas villagers have no ****ing clue, are trying to find wolves and will just naturally create enemies because they're frustrated or trying to solve the game.

Of course when you play with more experienced players, they will know that most other people in the game don't read things on level 1 and so they will TRY to actually imitate what gets people lynched in newbie games because these things are considered villagery by experienced players.

So this means that with experienced players what you actually need to look for are one of two things: 1) Are they not showing ANY of the traits that would normally get newbies lynched in newbie games (i.e. stuff that experienced people would call villagery), or 2) Are they showing this unconvincingly - and this can be judged in comparison to that player's previous games or just your general feeling of what the bar is for unconvincing "villagery behavior" based on your previous games.

This was a long and maybe convoluted way of saying: You need to assess what the psychology of a villager is and why they might do certain stuff, and vice versa for wolves.

Or it's another way of saying: People trying to maneuver where the votes should go is not wolfy. For many people, it's in fact villagery (well, depending on the nature of it). For really good players, it's completely role neutral.

Food for thought anyway
So, your strategy works against experienced players, but not newbies. Gotcha.

Since I can't rely on any of the information you speak of, I use my people reading, and logic skills. Your posts have a ton of red flags in those areas. Maybe you could claim that's "normal" for experienced players... but no one else here is coming up as hard as you are to me.

Yes, obviously I'm going to make mistakes. I have no problem with that. Apparently you do as well (unless you're a wolf).

My point about you playing for yourself or the wolf team and not the village still stands.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:16 AM   #1332
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Re: Battle of Hydras Werewolf Game

Bhuber
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:18 AM   #1333
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Re: Battle of Hyrdas Werewolf Game

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Originally Posted by Thingyman View Post
We can't afford to mislynch ever again.

I'm pretty sure we've already lost this game.

I think Klairic is a villager and I fear that we will probably mislynch at least once and that will put us at must lynch where Klairic will vote for me and we will lose the game.
If you stop making this all about you, and try to help us all figure out the wolves, then maybe I'll stop trying to lynch you. I'm not 100% set on you, but I need help seeing why I should vote someone else. Getting mad at me isn't going to do it. Telling me who to vote for isn't going to do it.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:19 AM   #1334
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Re: Battle of Hyrdas Werewolf Game

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Originally Posted by Thingyman View Post
So right now I'm clinging onto two things. I want to actually try and solve this game with someone (this is what I signed up for) and I was hoping that I could do this with you instead of Herbie then. I'm not trying to get out of solving the game by leaning on someone else - I'm saying, let's put our minds together and look at every single player and reach a collective conclusion on all of them. Or something. And the other thing that I'm clinging to is that I desperately don't want to be mislynched. I'll be perfectly frank - I care more about not being mislynched than I care about winning the game. I am super prideful about this - I just really, really don't want to be mislynched, I've always considered it one of my strengths to be able to clear myself and plus it feels good to be able to work on the game without the added stress of being unclear. And it's tragic - because I don't want to be mislynched, I will put in ridicolous amounts of effort to avoid it, but this also also means that if I DO get mislynched, it hurts all the more. I would just be left with an empty feeling that there is no point to playing the game if really giving it 110 % still wasn't good enough. Not saying all this to insinuate that I wouldn't be fighting hard to avoid lynch as a wolf too obviously - I was just explaining my current mental state in this game.

Anyways, that was a lot of rambling lol
This is wolfy imo
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:21 AM   #1335
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Re: Battle of Hydras Werewolf Game

I advise people to not treat Kruze/Leafs as lock wolves. It's no good if they're villagers, obviously, but it doesn't help us any even if they're wolves.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:21 AM   #1336
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Re: Battle of Hyrdas Werewolf Game

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Originally Posted by Klairic View Post
So, your strategy works against experienced players, but not newbies. Gotcha.

Since I can't rely on any of the information you speak of, I use my people reading, and logic skills. Your posts have a ton of red flags in those areas. Maybe you could claim that's "normal" for experienced players... but no one else here is coming up as hard as you are to me.

Yes, obviously I'm going to make mistakes. I have no problem with that. Apparently you do as well (unless you're a wolf).

My point about you playing for yourself or the wolf team and not the village still stands.
No, my strategy works for all players? And it's not really a "strategy" - it's what everyone does, it's just the nature of the game and its players.

What I'm saying is... Again, this isn't meant to sound insulting... In a couple of months you will look back at what you've been calling wolfy in this game and lol at yourself :P

Which holds true for everyone and their first game. So I was merely hoping that maybe we could speed along your progress (partly because I do honestly think that you're very impressive in that you're thinking a lot about this game) :P

And there's no logic to you saying that I am not working for the village - I understand that you would have a weird gut reaction to my selfish statement, but it doesn't change that logically I am still working for the village.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:21 AM   #1337
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Re: Battle of Hyrdas Werewolf Game

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Me not wanting to be mislynched luckily serves the villagery very well.

And I spent the entirety of yesterday trying to solve this game towards meeting that end.

In other words: Me trying not to be mislynched means that I will be putting in great effort to solve the game = good for the village, playing for the village.

If all villagers made sure that they wouldn't get mislynched, the village would win every game.

It's important and good to clear yourself. My motives are actually selfish, sure, but it doesn't matter - I am still, whether I am intending to or not, helping the village a great deal.
You have a logical problem in your argument. Yes, technically if every villager were to save themselves the village would win every time. In reality though, this is impossible.

I have no problems with someone saving themselves when that's what's best... but as the same time, overdoing it is also bad for the team.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:23 AM   #1338
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Re: Battle of Hydras Werewolf Game

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Originally Posted by gambit8888 View Post
This is wolfy imo
No, it's not.

Explain. How is that wolfy. I really want to hear it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tappokone View Post
I advise people to not treat Kruze/Leafs as lock wolves. It's no good if they're villagers, obviously, but it doesn't help us any even if they're wolves.
Well, I was wondering why you were giving KruZe/leafs an out. I thought that treating them as lock wolves even though they may not be was clearly the best thing to do - if they're villagers, they would post a lot and get all mad and try to help us on their way out or something. Whereas if they're wolves, they would just go into anti-spew and we'd know for sure.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:25 AM   #1339
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Re: Battle of Hyrdas Werewolf Game

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No, my strategy works for all players? And it's not really a "strategy" - it's what everyone does, it's just the nature of the game and its players.

What I'm saying is... Again, this isn't meant to sound insulting... In a couple of months you will look back at what you've been calling wolfy in this game and lol at yourself :P

Which holds true for everyone and their first game. So I was merely hoping that maybe we could speed along your progress (partly because I do honestly think that you're very impressive in that you're thinking a lot about this game) :P

And there's no logic to you saying that I am not working for the village - I understand that you would have a weird gut reaction to my selfish statement, but it doesn't change that logically I am still working for the village.
Whether or not you realize it, the way that this comes off to me is that you're trying to get me to look at my arguments as silly since I'm a newbie. To be quite honest, you're kinda solidifying my reads here...

You're working for yourself, the wolves, or the village. You've picked yourself... but just like a good wolf, you want to make it look like you're working for the village.

TBH, your game is so all over the place that I wouldn't be surprised if you're a villager... but that doesn't really change much for me.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:26 AM   #1340
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Re: Battle of Hyrdas Werewolf Game

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Originally Posted by Klairic View Post
You have a logical problem in your argument. Yes, technically if every villager were to save themselves the village would win every time. In reality though, this is impossible.

I have no problems with someone saving themselves when that's what's best... but as the same time, overdoing it is also bad for the team.
No, it isn't. I'm not saying this as a subjective opinion. It is objectively never bad for the team. It really isn't... Okay, this is untrue, if you are a power role, you may not want to overdo it, since you could benefit from not being too clear - but as a vanillager, it is never bad for the team.

And also, you say you would have no problem with it "when that's what's best".

We are at ML+1. Some people are suspecting me/Herbie. How is working to make us clear not what's best? If you mislynch us, you are only one mislynch away from losing the game.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:29 AM   #1341
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Re: Battle of Hyrdas Werewolf Game

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Originally Posted by Klairic View Post
Whether or not you realize it, the way that this comes off to me is that you're trying to get me to look at my arguments as silly since I'm a newbie. To be quite honest, you're kinda solidifying my reads here...

You're working for yourself, the wolves, or the village. You've picked yourself... but just like a good wolf, you want to make it look like you're working for the village.

TBH, your game is so all over the place that I wouldn't be surprised if you're a villager... but that doesn't really change much for me.
Mission accomplished. I will take this. Because this is true and this is something that newbies very rarely think of. You're completely right in thinking this. It's a shame you won't totally rely on it, but I'm satisfied with you actually thinking of this. It mostly boils down to: If I was a wolf, what path/line do I take? The simple one (this is simplifying things a bit, but let's just keep at this). There's a reason that I never get suspected when I'm a wolf and a reason that I always get suspected when I'm a villager (initially at least).

And I understand how it reads, yeah. But as a villager I am also interested in you correcting your read.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:30 AM   #1342
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Re: Battle of Hyrdas Werewolf Game

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Originally Posted by Thingyman View Post
We are at ML+1. Some people are suspecting me/Herbie. How is working to make us clear not what's best? If you mislynch us, you are only one mislynch away from losing the game.
Find the bloody wolves dude... this isn't about you
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:31 AM   #1343
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Re: Battle of Hyrdas Werewolf Game

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And I understand how it reads, yeah. But as a villager I am also interested in you correcting your read.
I will "correct" my read when there is someone in my eyes wolfier than you...
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:32 AM   #1344
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Re: Battle of Hyrdas Werewolf Game

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Originally Posted by Thingyman View Post
I'm btw super excited to learn the results of this :P
Some early results:

Compared to the vanilla 13er, you're noticeably more villagery in this game in terms of work ethic and aggression. In the older game you're a constant presence in the thread and post a lot and freak out when Soah pushes you, but your posts tend to be shorter and you don't dig for dirt with the same enthusiasm. That's all okay.

Your reasoning for your wolf leans is pretty shaky. Not sure if that's a point in favor, given that I haven't liked all of your reasoning here. I should remind myself why you thought WN was wolfy. In the older game you do some peek reads and they're bad in the same way your Felix peek read was bad - you quote what the peek is and then express uncertainty over it.

I abandoned the mash after d1 because people just post way differently in those.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:33 AM   #1345
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Re: Battle of Hyrdas Werewolf Game

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Mission accomplished. I will take this. Because this is true and this is something that newbies very rarely think of. You're completely right in thinking this. It's a shame you won't totally rely on it, but I'm satisfied with you actually thinking of this. It mostly boils down to: If I was a wolf, what path/line do I take? The simple one (this is simplifying things a bit, but let's just keep at this). There's a reason that I never get suspected when I'm a wolf and a reason that I always get suspected when I'm a villager (initially at least).

And I understand how it reads, yeah. But as a villager I am also interested in you correcting your read.
I haven't read through your other games, but the impression I have of you is that you want your wolf/villager games to look the same, and that you have the skills to do that. To me that means that none of us can rely on what you do/don't do... but rather we have to throw out your actions, and look at the tone and logic of your posts.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:36 AM   #1346
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Re: Battle of Hyrdas Werewolf Game

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Originally Posted by tappokone View Post
Some early results:

Compared to the vanilla 13er, you're noticeably more villagery in this game in terms of work ethic and aggression. In the older game you're a constant presence in the thread and post a lot and freak out when Soah pushes you, but your posts tend to be shorter and you don't dig for dirt with the same enthusiasm. That's all okay.

Your reasoning for your wolf leans is pretty shaky. Not sure if that's a point in favor, given that I haven't liked all of your reasoning here. I should remind myself why you thought WN was wolfy. In the older game you do some peek reads and they're bad in the same way your Felix peek read was bad - you quote what the peek is and then express uncertainty over it.

I abandoned the mash after d1 because people just post way differently in those.
oh right lol

good thing you did: I was a villager for the first day of that game. Got converted to wolf.

So you're done now looking at my games? :/
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:40 AM   #1347
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Re: Battle of Hyrdas Werewolf Game

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No, the last part is true, but I'm gonna be honest.

I am currently deriving zero pleasure from playing this game. I wanted to give ww one last shot, partly because I thought this format sounded like fun and I've loved having masons in the past... Or the idea of it at least since we never really got to chat (and tragically, the same holds true for this game which - no ill words about Herbie, he couldn't predict the work thing - is making me sad).

But this just isn't fun. It's a chore to play and I'm way too much of an emotional player. So it's just hard work and frustrations with no pay off.

So right now I'm clinging onto two things. I want to actually try and solve this game with someone (this is what I signed up for) and I was hoping that I could do this with you instead of Herbie then. I'm not trying to get out of solving the game by leaning on someone else - I'm saying, let's put our minds together and look at every single player and reach a collective conclusion on all of them. Or something. And the other thing that I'm clinging to is that I desperately don't want to be mislynched. I'll be perfectly frank - I care more about not being mislynched than I care about winning the game. I am super prideful about this - I just really, really don't want to be mislynched, I've always considered it one of my strengths to be able to clear myself and plus it feels good to be able to work on the game without the added stress of being unclear. And it's tragic - because I don't want to be mislynched, I will put in ridicolous amounts of effort to avoid it, but this also also means that if I DO get mislynched, it hurts all the more. I would just be left with an empty feeling that there is no point to playing the game if really giving it 110 % still wasn't good enough. Not saying all this to insinuate that I wouldn't be fighting hard to avoid lynch as a wolf too obviously - I was just explaining my current mental state in this game.

Anyways, that was a lot of rambling lol
Random observations, feel free to ignore:

you seem to be getting very frustrated at stuff that i would characterise as an intersection between psychology and the fog of war - essentially, different people interpret information in different ways, draw different conclusions, miss information, take different messages from the same piece of text, but that's the reality of the game: we're all operating for most of the game at least partially in the dark.

Like, we use the phrase solve the game, but it's not like a chess puzzle, we never really solve the game until the endgame. The bit I enjoy the most about ww is being in the final three as a villager, and making that last decision. But even there when you're right it's never a question of having solved the game (if you're me, at least), you weight things up and pull the trigger and if you're right then you convince yourself in retrospect you solved the game but in reality in the moment of hitting post you're still operating in an amazing amount of ambiguity.

Ignorance is the sea in which we swim when we're playing WW, it's inevitable that we're going to be wrong much of the time, and we're going to be unable to convince people we're villagers much of the time. If the village lynches right 50% of the time, we win. But that's going to involve mislynching 1/2 of the time, and getting mislynched a fair amount of the time, too (1/3 of the time?). Yeah we want to be right in our reads, and get Niked and whatever, and yeah we fight against being mislynched, but accepting being wrong and being misread is a necessary part of enjoying swimming naked in the dark.

To coin a phrase, "Anyways, that was a lot of rambling lol". Make of it what you will. I'll go and catch up with the end of yesterday.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:42 AM   #1348
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Re: Battle of Hyrdas Werewolf Game

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klairic View Post
I haven't read through your other games, but the impression I have of you is that you want your wolf/villager games to look the same, and that you have the skills to do that. To me that means that none of us can rely on what you do/don't do... but rather we have to throw out your actions, and look at the tone and logic of your posts.
From the best player on this site, soah:

Quote:
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you're great at faking tone as a wolf
This likely isn't a point in my favor or anything, but iunno, felt like quoting it :P
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:42 AM   #1349
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Re: Battle of Hydras Werewolf Game

I'm probably stating the obvious here but I dont think there are any scenarios where Kruze/Leafs and THingyman/Herbie are WW/WW together. Leo and I already pointed out that we thought the peeks were Tappo and Leo villa. Thingyman came in and pointed out that Mets peeked Kruze WW.

So if Kruze flips wolf we can pretty much clear Thingyman because why would a wolf come in an dpoint out a peek of his wolf bro?
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:46 AM   #1350
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Re: Battle of Hydras Werewolf Game

So, I'm looking at the 5/5 votes last night... and I have a couple of thoughts:

gtpitch/kokiri is either a villager, or 3 wolves voted for iversonian/DonkDonkDonkDonk

Does this make sense? This is also assuming I'm a villager... feel free to add in some points that consider me not to be one.
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