OK, got it. Cheating is bad, but claiming to cheat is clearly either dumb or an angle, making it worse. Thanks for the answer, JMurder3, appreciated.

Long standing rules are.

:00 Good (votes ok, posts ok)
:01 Bad (votes not counted, posts ok)
:02 Modkill

Don was modkilled for the content of his :01 post and clarification the following game day that he made the vote late intentionally. (from my understanding)

A couple of the days I had a post submitted at :01 and the thread was locked when I hit submit, before :02. As a game mod I always lock the thread at exactly :01:57 (takes a couple seconds for it to process so I close it as close to :02 as I can to prevent accidental :02 posters) so It threw me off the game thread being locked at :01:30 or earlier, which isn't a problem to complain about, and I didn't, I just noticed.

I actually watch the seconds on my sync'd internet clock to make sure I'm not posting at :02, but :01 and 59 seconds is perfectly acceptable if you can get a post in. As long as the time stamp isn't :02, there is no modkill for posting at :01, unless well, that's what I'm waiting to understand.

I have more to say on this but have been reserving post game comments until UD explains why he recommended the mod action he did.

From the rules linked in the OP:

clearly says you can't post at :01

I'm reminded of a scene from Pulp Fiction

meh, that's truly not the POG standard I guess I take fault in that having being the last person to edit that thread, but ya got me there with the link I always read all of the rules that a game mod posts, I never click the standard rule link because I know the standard rules, it's linked to a post from 2013, the true standard has been from my experience and before 2013...

:00 good (vote ok, post ok)
:01 bad (vote not counted, post ok)
:02 modkill

I call on Gabethebabe and other longtime 2p2 WW players/game mods to back me up on this.

If not I could go through and find tons and tons of examples of the standard I'm talking about.

*sigh*

You should be locking the thread at :01:00.

Posts at :01 are BAD and the game mod should prevent them by locking the thread. That is the best defense, it prevents all known problems other than mods playing on their mod account.

The logic of the rules is posts at :00 are GOOD and nothing should be done to discourage GOOD posts.

:01 is BAD, but :01 should not be punished because it's an impossible standard to meet. If :01 posts resulted in modkill then the only way players could be certain to avoid modkill is by avoiding posting late in the :00 minute -- these are GOOD posts which we don't want to discourage.

The internet is full of uncertainty. TCP makes no promises about how soon your packet will arrive; it assumes there can be trouble and will RETRY so sometimes packets arrive quite long after they are sent. The time difference between :00 (GOOD, please post) and :01 (BAD, don't post) is 0.00 seconds. That's not enough grace period given

* the internet
* uncertain time on player machine
* uncertain time on the 2p2 server.

Thus :01 is BAD but ignored in ordinary circumstances. An example of an extraordinary circumstance is the same player making two :01 posts. With normal care they should have seen the timestamp on their first post.

:02 is different. It's possible to avoid posting at :02 or later with reasonable care by the player. When you see evidence that it's :01, don't post. Just like that you've avoided :02 posting.

It is not actually mandatory to modkill for late posts, although it is now the standard. There isn't some inherent game breaking advantage in a late post. In ancient times it wasn't standard to modkill for all late posts.

Talking about how you broke the rules and how breaking the rules makes you a villager is a game breaking advantage and deserves to be dealt with harshly. You aren't a villager because the mod did *x*.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...postcount=4023

I would have never recommended modkilling (or giving any other punishment) Donat3llo JUST for posting on :01. This is because I assume good faith until something gives me reason to think otherwise

That being said, players should never intentionally post on :01. The 01: GOOD, 02: BAD phrase is not just for show. I am extremely surprised that a player as experienced as you are is suggesting otherwise.

Obviously, it would have been ideal if the mod always closed the thread immediately after the clock hits :01, but bad internet or bad computers can happen.

This is a basic misunderstanding of why posts at :02 are modkilled. I mean, what's the big deal? If you're writing a long post, it's entirely possible for it to post late unintentionally, and if you're not voting, why does it matter?

It's to stop things like 1. A wolf realizing he's been lynched (so is no longer able to legally talk to the other players) and saying "btw team, I figured out that kbar13 is the seer, kill him tonight" 2. A seer realizing he's been lynched and saying "I didn't claim earlier for reasons, but I peeked a wolf last night, kill VR tomorrow when I turn up seer" 3. Making it look like you tried to switch your vote when you actually didn't want to. Consider the scenario where knights is the villager and chuckles is the wolf. Wolf Donatello intentionally posts knowing his vote won't count, and then wolf chuck is lynched the next day. Donatello then argues that he wouldn't have tried to switch the lynch away from knights onto chuckles if he were a wolf. Or consider that both players (chuck and nee) are wolves. Wolf Donatello can then say "Why on earth would I post a late vote like that as a wolf? All it does is make me look bad, but I tried to switch the lynch so I'm just a villager doubting myself."

I also want to say that Crossnerd did not complain, I did. I would like to point out that Crossnerd didn't even discuss it in the thread. I was going to let it go as an honest misunderstanding of the rules, but then he tried to use the dichotomy to argue that he wasn't wolfy, and then when he realized that wasn't working, he reversed course, and argued he was just a lying villager, and then that was working, and at that point the mod becomes complicit, because a wolf should be really be killed for angling and then using that to argue that he's a villager.

And it's not okay. I asked for a modkill and linked the posts where he argued BECAUSE it was an angle he wasn't a wolf, and then the reversal. The truth is though, once Donatello flips, somebody else is going to be the lynch that day, and he's going to flip villager, which means someone is going to look at his peeks to see why wolves might think he wasn't the seer, which means I look less like a villager, and the wolf team does get somewhat hurt by it. I also said they could make chuck the lynch for that day, but that was in the heat of the moment and punishes the wrong player. (And I was literally writing that PM when I should have been leaving for my job interview, so I didn't think the chuck lynch through very well...no I was not LATE for the interview, I just didn't get there as early as I wanted to.)

Effectively, what the mod did was make Donatello the village lynch for the day, just without costing all the rest of the players another day. And while it was more than I expected, it didn't seem like an unreasonable call. What I didn't think about until postgame is that 1) JM3 is right, the extra kill should have been announced in the thread before nightfall, and 2) all the players should have received the option to change/upgrade their powerups to really keep the game fair.

That would have been a LOT of extra work for Ace, though. in a game that's already a fair amount of work. I hope Ace doesn't get any fallout from this. I think he modded really carefully and completely. The fireball at the end was kind of a fluky thing, and I feel that the village can really count this as a win, if not for "stats" reasons. I actually felt kind of dirty even requesting a new power up last night, but felt I owed it to my team to exhaust every option before conceding.

On the emotional blackmail side, I also personally regret one post I made to monstrman when he was actually tilting in the thread, something like "I hope you aren't a wolf manipulating me or I'll be upset." I thought I should make that post, since as a villager I wouldn't really know, especially with a player I don't know, but then I immediately regretted it and have done so ever since.

Also "special pleading" damn autocorrect on my phone.

lol crossposting.

Hi UD, it's great to see you are still around!

I also think that all authors of :02 posts should be modkilled without mercy, because I do not believe that someone sent a post on :00 if the post is actually published at :02.

Obviously, mods are expected to have closed the thread by :02, but the fact that the cop is not there where they are supposed to be does not mean you are allowed to commit a crime.

Hello, just taking this chance to say that I am running a Choose Your Own Adventure Mish-Mash after Game of Thrones. I intend to steal copiously from your three games, and hope to see you there.

Well, you should be refreshing in another tab, because once you see an :01 timestamp, yes, you shouldn't be sending that post.

In the long ago mods were pretty easygoing about late posting, until a seer literally did what I just used as an example: left no peeks in the thread, then nightposted "I'm the seer, here are my peeks" when the village lynched him.

Wow, CYOA lives on. I'm glad. I always wanted to do a 4th one, but didn't have the heart for it after GT1T and I split up.

:00 good
:01 bad
:02 impossible

is the way to go

VR, team MVP, you're going to have to readjust your meta after this game! Can't say you're out of wolf range anymore

We rarely chatted during the day and our nights were super stress free. Thanks for inviting me, and I really enjoyed wolfing with you. #teamfemme

+1 to

:00 good
:01 bad
:02 modkill

Appreciate all the detail. It helps a lot in understanding what happened and why.

Obv, :00 Good, :01 BAD.

lol gg

gg wolves

I mean a :01 post of something like "crazy eod" shouldn't be a modkill
but a deliberate :01 that is trying to be deceptive is a modkill

I don't think people are disputing the modkill

but the additional nk compensation

UD gave the advice to give wolves compensation?

I remember him telling me that I should never do that after I modkilled someone for this exact thing.

Not going to read the essays ITT though

I do not really remember this. Also, I do not think this particular situation has ever occurred before in POG (player lateposts, then claims to have lateposted intentionally, then retracts).

Their extra nk target had a mushroom that could have protected the player. So really, we should blame the player for being bad at 20% rands

/aids

It WAS fun.

BTW, kbar, just so you know...we toyed with randomizing the kill on n2 and it came up you, so you actually were in legit danger of dying with a HardcoreUFO= wolf peek out there. Just wanted to let you know why that kind of thing is so dangerous.

BUT, if you're going to fps a peek (since seers have done it before and it will happen again) never ever claim someone is a villager if you haven't peeked them, because that's how you doom your entire team.

TY knights, well named, and of course Ace.