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Old 06-21-2015, 05:12 PM   #2326
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Basically I am interested to see how this whole dorian vs banks thing turns out.

Dorian doesnt seem to be too concerned at the moment despite banks being somewhat vocal about him being mafia...

road thinks that banks is mafia (even though dorian is voting road)

road isnt voting dorian back

its like road is in his own little ass world where he kind of just entertains his own ideas and he's just poking on the sides of the glass

(its possible that I am misinterpreting this completely and hes just mafia and just completely and totally detatched from the thread).
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Old 06-21-2015, 05:14 PM   #2327
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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Originally Posted by TehBankertin View Post
can you play the game i played with road over night on dorian then tell me what you think of his alignment.
I already read his posts last night (and told you I agreed) and thought the same thing myself.

I asked myself before even reading him - which player does it seem has taken kind of the easiest road to get to this point? If I had to answer honestly Id agree with you and say dorian.

I'll re-read his posts when I get home here in a little bit. I feel as if you were mafia w/ road, you're only option here would be to kind of soft defend him (or defend him even if he's town) and try and divert the wagons somewhere else (i.e. dorian). So I am wary.


Again, 'll re-read him when I get back and try and keep and open mind.
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Old 06-21-2015, 05:27 PM   #2328
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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I already read his posts last night (and told you I agreed) and thought the same thing myself.

I asked myself before even reading him - which player does it seem has taken kind of the easiest road to get to this point? If I had to answer honestly Id agree with you and say dorian.

I'll re-read his posts when I get home here in a little bit. I feel as if you were mafia w/ road, you're only option here would be to kind of soft defend him (or defend him even if he's town) and try and divert the wagons somewhere else (i.e. dorian). So I am wary.


Again, 'll re-read him when I get back and try and keep and open mind.
Yeah I'm town though so just read dorian's filter. Like honestly if you read ratchet's filter you would be where achro/fonti/doc are that I'm town and ratchet spewed me as such. The only one that has read it and still thinks I'm a wolf is slendy because hes probably really bad at role hunting and doesn't like that I could tell cue wasn't cop and ratchet felt like cop to me.
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Old 06-21-2015, 05:29 PM   #2329
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Slendy why do you read dorian as town?
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Old 06-21-2015, 05:39 PM   #2330
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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3) I think you/and pretty much everyone are heavily, heavily discounting plausible wolf teams based on d1 interactions (i.e. ive seen many people (not you in particular) bring up that riki/dorian cant be mafia based on their interactions).

Given, I actually havent gone back and read them myself but from a general strategic POV, discounting possible wolf teams based on d1 interactions is generally really terrible/awful/horrible way to play. d1 is like literally the easiest day to interact with your mafia bros. Its like the exact easiest day to bus/say all sorts of nasty **** to one another/vote eachother,etc. The village has like 13 possible lynches, it goes without say that you can probably say just about anything to a wolf bro and the village will end up going another route/lynching someone else entirely.

(plus riki voting dorian (and banks too)) really means absolutely nothing if dorian were to flip scum because it was in a way where dorian was literally in no danger of being lynched (cause his wagon got no traction)...not saying riki is scum or anything (i havent even really filtered his posts yet) - just saying its strategically poor to elminate mafia combos based on d1 in general.
i mean i think completely ruling out people at like must lynch for d1 interactions is probably a bad idea, but we aren't at must lynch yet and it's still useful to know whether someone is less likely or more likely to be mafia with someone else imo

i agree that it is relatively easy to interact with mafia partners on d1, but starting a cfd on one when they had no votes previously is probably like really low on the scale

i haven't played/seen too many games of slendy before, but from what i can remember he's not the type of player to make ridiculously -ev plays like that

also, i don't think i understand the last paragraph, if i'm mafia with dorian how would i know that a dorian wagon wouldn't get votes before i decide to bus and vote him?
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Old 06-21-2015, 05:40 PM   #2331
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

also the me/dorian thing goes further than just me trying to vote him at eod, but if you don't put weight into d1 interactions then it's w/e
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Old 06-21-2015, 05:46 PM   #2332
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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also the me/dorian thing goes further than just me trying to vote him at eod, but if you don't put weight into d1 interactions then it's w/e
Could you link some of the interactions you're talking about?
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Old 06-21-2015, 05:49 PM   #2333
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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His signup post made me think he was town because it was wordy like he was being the whole game which was part of my scum read on him.

I think that its scummy to play the way he is playing. So his home site doesn't look for scum on day 1. Do you think that as scum he would look for scum here? Do you think that he is town because he told us thats the case and then doesn't look for scum?
i'm not sure i understand the purpose of either of these questions

like i think it should be simple enough to understand that regardless of his alignment, he wouldn't have been used to the type of play that was expected of him on day 1 in this game

rereading his filter i actually think he adapted quite well given how his forum normally plays d1

that one part where he accused doc thinking they were similar types of players, yet doc had a ton of scumreads while he himself had like no scumreads seemed really genuine to me

i mean i agree that having a relatively low amount of posts that are gamesolving is scummy in a vacuum, but i don't understand why you would leave it at that and not like, try to evaluate people on a player by player basis
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Old 06-21-2015, 05:54 PM   #2334
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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Could you link some of the interactions you're talking about?
this is the entire interaction

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slendy - all game 5 (once he was active), pushed hard on people I considered easy targets. All game, I thought it was super-scummy because it's a tactic I see mafia use a lot, despite everyone eventually thinking he was the towniest town left. I dislike the tactic, but given he likes using it as town, that's a point in his favor that he's playing the same way again.
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i don't think i agree with this description

he defended luffy early on (he flipped later because lol luffy but that's besides the point), he didn't really go hard at people like blode/chez either and those were the people i'd consider to be the easiest targets in that game

also, what makes you think he wouldn't also do it as mafia?
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I don't necessarily think Slendy wouldn't do it as mafia. We're all good players, I'm sure he's capable of it. But we have to start somewhere, and I like to start with the simpler answer, which is that same play is more likely to indicate same affiliation.



I did read games 4 and 5 before we started so I'd have some idea of what I was getting myself into.
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wait, we're talking about pushing easy wagons as mafia right

why would anyone have to be a "good player" to be capable of that

didn't you say yourself that you thought that type of play was more likely to come from mafia

also, y u ignore the part of my post where i like, disagreed with you and stuff
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I suppose you don't have to be a "good player" to push easy wagons as mafia, but consciously keeping your same town playstyle when you're mafia is one of the biggest challenges of the game, and being able to do it is part of what makes someone a "good player" in my opinion.

I did say that I see the tactic as coming from mafia a lot. But how often do you have to see someone use the same tactic as town before you stop seeing it as scummy when it comes from them? I know a sample size of one game is pretty pathetic, but I'm new here and it's all I have to work with.

I ignored the rest of the post because I felt like rehashing the nitty-gritty of how I read another game would be a pretty serious de-rail of the thread. Suffice it to say that I would have been horribly wrong as town. We can discuss the details if you want, but in the end I think we'll still disagree, and that's ok.



They are. Like, I've been conditioned to think that all the stuff people getting reads off of this early in a game are all complete WIFOM and BS, and until actual stuff happens, mafia can and will say/do anything. I'm trying to adapt. When I posted the slight read on slendy, I don't believe he had much suspicion, at least in my mind. I mean, some people disagreed with his decision to withhold the reason, but did anyone actually think he was suspicious for it?
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i feel like you're responding to my paragraphs one at a time for the purpose of responding to them atm, not like actually responding to my post as a whole

i'm not sure what to make of that

anyway

"consciously keeping your same town playstyle when you're mafia is one of the biggest challenges of the game" is an unnecessarily general statement

we're talking specifically about pushing easy wagons, and you agree that it's something mafia are more likely to do, so why does the fact that you think slendy does it as town make it unlikely that slendy would do it as mafia? like i'm not sure how that can be an actual thought process

also, given that this is the champions game, wouldn't it be the more natural assumption to think that slendy is a "good player"

my second paragraph was in response to you thinking slendy wouldn't do it as town despite you thinking mafia are more likely to do it, your response is kind of unrelated and why i think you're responding for the purpose of responding and not for actual discussion
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i'm not sure if i worded this well

to reexplain, this is what dorian's thought progression has been afaict:

> he thinks mafia are more likely to push easy wagons (i agree)
> he thinks slendy pushed easy wagons last game as town (i disagree, but it's w/e)

-> he thinks slendy is town this game for pushing easy wagons again
-> he doesn't think slendy is mafia pushing easy wagons because he thinks it's difficult for mafia to replicate their town game

that justification makes literally no sense to me
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like

idk
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Originally Posted by dorian78 View Post
To further elaborate a little on this, I get why slendy didn't want to give me the reason. He thinks that telling me whatever I was doing that he thought was scummy would immediately make me stop doing it, and he wants to see if I'll keep doing it. I'd typically just wait to see if they kept doing it without putting the vote out there, but I suppose he thinks the vote is pressure to keep me posting.

Either way, the only thing I can do at the moment is wait until he decides to elaborate, cause he's given me nothing to address.


You're trying to draw me to the conclusion that everyone here is good enough that their mafia play will be absolutely indistinguishable from their town play. Is that an accurate summary, and do you agree with that conclusion?

AFK for work for a short while.
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i think there are two separate ideas here

1) you think mafia are more likely to push easy wagons
2) you think mafia have difficulty replicating their town play

my problem is that you think slendy is town because of 2) while completely ignoring 1)
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Ah. I believe I literally gave slendy "a point in his favor," which is a pretty weak townread from me, and it was for replicating his town play, and thus your point 2. Point 1 is a generality to use when unfamiliar with someone. Experience with a person's playstyle (which I've already said that I know one game isn't much, but all I have to work with), trumps generalities like that.

For example, we have a couple of players on our site that say and do the dumbest, scummiest stuff all the time. They used to get lynched for it all the time. They were inevitably not mafia. So now when they do that stuff that most of us think is scummy, most of us know that it's a sign that they're more likely innocent, because their playstyle trumps the generality.

It's why a game like this is so tough: most of us have little to no experience with each others' playstyles.

I notice you avoided my question about whether you think that we're all so good that our scum play should be indistinguishable from our town play. Even if that's not the conclusion you were trying to get me to admit, the question still stands.
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imo both points were pretty general statements

like, you can say that someone is playing similar to how they played as town, but that's a pretty surface level observation

it kind of ties into my response to your next paragraph



i don't think that people are good enough to make their scum play indistinguishable from their town play. but i also don't think that people can or will play completely identically from game to game as town either

which is why i disliked the justification you used, it seems kind of arbitrary to conclude that he is "town pushing easy wagons again" a >rand amount of the time here rather than "mafia pushing easy wagons to appear similar to his town game" without giving any further analysis (not that you could really give much more analysis on it, but that's also kind of part of my point)
i think he stopped responding at this point

also worth noting is that ratchet started arguing with me starting like halfway through this interaction
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Old 06-21-2015, 05:56 PM   #2335
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

i just realized how dumb the "like idk" quote looks in that post lol

i quoted dorian's bio in that post and highlighted a part that i thought was inconsistent with how dorian was playing at the time

that was also the post that ratchet "disliked" and started to argue with me about
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Old 06-21-2015, 05:57 PM   #2336
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Everyone thinks my logic is wrong... until it's nearly always right. Even when it's wrong, I lay out the next steps. Wish this was my old forum where I could lean on my unusual sense of "just trust me on this" to see my theory through to completion.

With that said i don't disagree that road should be lynched. Won't complain about that. Its the right move. But I just feel like a bhuber dorian combo is such a real possiblity. And no matter how much others downplay it, and bhuber mislynch is the most useful mislynch and a bhuber accurate lynch is the second most useful lynch (behind a road accurate lynch).
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Old 06-21-2015, 06:01 PM   #2337
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Exclamation Vote Count

Votes from post 1743 to post 2336
Night in 1:59:58

---
VotesLynchVoters
4 road dorian78 (29), Riki (105), Slendy (85), fontisian (33)
1 bhuber2010 DocEspana (29)
1 dorian78 TehBankertin (131)
2 not voting Achromatic (32), road (58)
1 Error bhuber2010 (69)
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Old 06-21-2015, 06:05 PM   #2338
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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Basically I am interested to see how this whole dorian vs banks thing turns out.

Dorian doesnt seem to be too concerned at the moment despite banks being somewhat vocal about him being mafia...

road thinks that banks is mafia (even though dorian is voting road)

road isnt voting dorian back

its like road is in his own little ass world where he kind of just entertains his own ideas and he's just poking on the sides of the glass

(its possible that I am misinterpreting this completely and hes just mafia and just completely and totally detatched from the thread).
i mean road straight up hasn't voted yet which someone else also pointed out earlier

afaict road thinks the mafia team is banks/dorian although he's tried to call out slendy for tunneling on him once or twice

i mean it's possible that he's just super out of it but some of the things he's said just seem super arbitrary and i don't see how it's possible to think those things from the pov of a villager, even one that's confused as hell
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Old 06-21-2015, 06:09 PM   #2339
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

like i probably should've written these things down but off of the top of my head:

him keeping a villager read on you (bhuber) for some (imo) thin eod1 reasons, and at the same time dropping down slendy and fonti into the poe for ??? reasons (and fonti was already a villager read of his before ratchet became confirmed mafia)

him insisting that achro is shc

his thing about wanting to resolve the 4 wagons that died out before eod before resolving the ratchet wagon

that's all i remember atm
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Old 06-21-2015, 06:13 PM   #2340
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

also his thing where he made a connection that ratchet could be a similar player to coolkid, a player who was mafia in the previous game with him, who played kind of utr and he (road) didn't pay much attention to him that game

even after making that connection, he continues to pay little attention to ratchet in this game, even though he apparently thinks ratchet is similar to a player that was mafia and escaped his attention in a previous game
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Old 06-21-2015, 06:27 PM   #2341
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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i did have some thoughts about this, but i didn't really say much about it because when i followed game 3 i remembered having some difficulty following banks' reads progression in that game too

like i mentioned his progression on hibiki earlier i think, where it kind of felt like he was starting to think hibiki was town every time they talked, but then a couple of posts later he goes back to calling hibiki mafia again

(i haven't actually reread that part so my memory might be wrong)

i mean you played with him in that game so if you disagree that would be interesting to know

anyway, given the above, i don't think i've seen anything strange enough from him to call out yet except for his handling of dorian on d2, which i did call him out for

so if you have more, that would also be good to know
I dont remember any wierd progression in his reads in game 3.

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how would you have expected banks to interact with you?
I would have expected him to ask more questions, following up on them trying to get answers - and just trying to let me have a hard time (so he could read me)

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wot

how does his answer spew you villager?
Because if what he says is true he would have instructed me to claim cop - instead i drop my cover because i think i have a good case. Therefore a scum!banks would spew me villager, unless he lied ofc.

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you need to explain why you thought this though
Well I cant explain it more than i have. I didnt find Ratchet that suspicious and i figured he would often be resolved anyway because that would be std - therefore not that important to research him over the others.

Havce you even considered if there is a point in my reasoning. That it does make sense to look at the earlier wagons?
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Old 06-21-2015, 06:28 PM   #2342
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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i'm not sure i understand the purpose of either of these questions

like i think it should be simple enough to understand that regardless of his alignment, he wouldn't have been used to the type of play that was expected of him on day 1 in this game

rereading his filter i actually think he adapted quite well given how his forum normally plays d1

that one part where he accused doc thinking they were similar types of players, yet doc had a ton of scumreads while he himself had like no scumreads seemed really genuine to me

i mean i agree that having a relatively low amount of posts that are gamesolving is scummy in a vacuum, but i don't understand why you would leave it at that and not like, try to evaluate people on a player by player basis
My point is he is doing something that is scummy. You say hes doing it because of his home meta doesn't make it less scummy in my eyes. He has been not actively solving the game.
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Old 06-21-2015, 06:29 PM   #2343
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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You are associative tunneling I hope if we lynch road today he flips scum. I however think that dorian is going to flip scum. I think that his day 1 was not trying to find scum. I think he has been concerned about himself not dying much more so than finding scum.
Ah. And here's the crux of the case. So I'm completely new to this setup and style of play, and I roll vanilla town. The biggest, worst thing I can for my team is get myself mislynched, especially if it's over something silly like day 1 culture shock. I have totally admitted I spent much of day 1 not trying to find scum, because I frankly don't know how. As we approached end of day, I gave it my best effort, and was wrong. Once I had some info to work with (D2 and beyond), I think this picture you've painted of me becomes less and less true, just like it should.

Here's the thing. I think you're either mafia and using this kind of case on me simply because my inexperience makes me a relatively easy target. Or you're town and actually believe this, and could easily become the next mislynch after me once I flip town. The second is almost worse than the first, because then we've both become a huge distraction to everyone else because you've played this kind of format/style for so long that you've forgotten what it's like to be completely new at it.
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Old 06-21-2015, 06:30 PM   #2344
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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i mean road straight up hasn't voted yet which someone else also pointed out earlier

afaict road thinks the mafia team is banks/dorian although he's tried to call out slendy for tunneling on him once or twice

i mean it's possible that he's just super out of it but some of the things he's said just seem super arbitrary and i don't see how it's possible to think those things from the pov of a villager, even one that's confused as hell
I agree its weird he hasn't voted when I'm pushing on dorian who he thinks is mafia nad bhuber is pushing on me. ?Both his suspects are on the table.
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Old 06-21-2015, 06:30 PM   #2345
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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Spark notes: his argument makes no sense to make, especially the way he made it, unless both him and either dorian/road are wolves OR he simply has zero strategy and really hates banks and is willing to name terrible arguments defending the #1 target in order to go after someone with questionable guilt. And IF bhuber is a wolf, drawing attention to himself make absolutely zero sense if his partner had less suspicion than him.
Thank you for this. That all makes complete sense to me.
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Old 06-21-2015, 06:33 PM   #2346
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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Ah. And here's the crux of the case. So I'm completely new to this setup and style of play, and I roll vanilla town. The biggest, worst thing I can for my team is get myself mislynched, especially if it's over something silly like day 1 culture shock. I have totally admitted I spent much of day 1 not trying to find scum, because I frankly don't know how. As we approached end of day, I gave it my best effort, and was wrong. Once I had some info to work with (D2 and beyond), I think this picture you've painted of me becomes less and less true, just like it should.

Here's the thing. I think you're either mafia and using this kind of case on me simply because my inexperience makes me a relatively easy target. Or you're town and actually believe this, and could easily become the next mislynch after me once I flip town. The second is almost worse than the first, because then we've both become a huge distraction to everyone else because you've played this kind of format/style for so long that you've forgotten what it's like to be completely new at it.
Which is more plausible? What is your biggest scum tell when you try to find scum on your site like what criteria do you use?
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Old 06-21-2015, 06:36 PM   #2347
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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I dont remember any wierd progression in his reads in game 3.



I would have expected him to ask more questions, following up on them trying to get answers - and just trying to let me have a hard time (so he could read me)



Because if what he says is true he would have instructed me to claim cop - instead i drop my cover because i think i have a good case. Therefore a scum!banks would spew me villager, unless he lied ofc.



Well I cant explain it more than i have. I didnt find Ratchet that suspicious and i figured he would often be resolved anyway because that would be std - therefore not that important to research him over the others.

Havce you even considered if there is a point in my reasoning. That it does make sense to look at the earlier wagons?
BTW the whole part where he says that if I'm a wolf its spews him village is insane to say if hes actually a wolf because the likely hood I flip before him is low AND he would know I'm town so it makes little sense.

Road is town dorian is a wolf. thre you go bhuber!
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Old 06-21-2015, 06:39 PM   #2348
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

BTW I know its the weekend but some people are having very bad days where they're not doing a lot.

I hate to name names but they rhyme with "schmonti" and "schmacomatic"
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Old 06-21-2015, 06:39 PM   #2349
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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Originally Posted by TehBankertin View Post
Which is more plausible? What is your biggest scum tell when you try to find scum on your site like what criteria do you use?
I think they're both pretty plausible, and I'm hoping to have road's flip to help me make a further decision.

The biggest scum tell I look for on my site is people waiting too long to claim a role or claiming things about their roles and actions that make no sense. I'm totally out of my element here.
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Old 06-21-2015, 06:42 PM   #2350
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by dorian78 View Post
I think they're both pretty plausible, and I'm hoping to have road's flip to help me make a further decision.

The biggest scum tell I look for on my site is people waiting too long to claim a role or claiming things about their roles and actions that make no sense. I'm totally out of my element here.
What do you think about me specifically? Lets have you take a voice on me.
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