Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Puzzles and Other Games Discussions about Puzzles and other non-gambling games

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-17-2015, 07:06 PM   #1301
Riki
adept
 
Riki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,123
Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by dorian78 View Post
Dorian's TL; DR for the day so far. Each group in no particular order.

Top half: fontisian, Riki, Slendy, bhuber, Banks

Bottom half: road, MSU, Doc, Achromatic, Ratchet

Of the top 3 I said I'd shoot, Ratchet and road both already have votes. Let's bring the third into the mix too so we don't forget about him and he hopefully finds a little more reason/time to contribute.

DocEspana
i pretty much agree completely with this list
Riki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 07:09 PM   #1302
TehBankertin
[blod]
 
TehBankertin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Wolf Chat
Posts: 16,773
Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by MSU View Post
I say what I feel, Ratchet. the more I think about it, the more scummy you become.

It's not personal, it's just mafia.
Just so you know if Ratchet is scum he is trying to kill you if you're town.

The phrase "its not personal its mafia" goes back to the soft thing. Wolves can suck my dick. I'm not trying to make friends with wolves I'm trying to kill them day in and day out. You're not saying anything about his actual character this pause and apologetic tone makes you look scummy. Like you're trying to befriend him while stabbing him.

MSU
TehBankertin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 07:10 PM   #1303
RatchetOPB
centurion
 
RatchetOPB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: England
Posts: 108
Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by TehBankertin View Post
Lets here some expansion when you get a chance.
Well, I think I've discussed you, Riki and my scum reads enough at this point, so I'll talk about Fonti and Dorian.

I find myself agreeing with the line of reasoning Dorian uses. I might not actually agree with his conclusions, and his reads themselves for a large part, but I can see his thought process, and it makes sense to me. I have a hard time seeing that thought process from scum, which is why he's lean town.

As for Fonti, I particularly have a hard time seeing scum push so heavily onto town when there were easier wagons to nudge with less effort. That seems like an overextension otherwise, and I'm not getting that impression. That is what puts her into my town reads for the most part right now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSU View Post
I say what I feel, Ratchet. the more I think about it, the more scummy you become.

It's not personal, it's just mafia.
But I can't defend that. I assume, if you are town, you want me to defend your argument, yes? That way you get a better understanding of my alignment. What I'm asking for is something I can attack. Something I can work with, a bit of substance. I can't attack "feelings".

As for what you brought up here, it says just about nothing really. If you think about something, you are either going to feel more strongly about it or you talk yourself out of it.

I'm concerned here, MRU. It's like you are happy to just sit on my lynch all Day and not really discuss it any further. Considering the discussion pertaining to my lynch before today was minimal and frantic at best, I really don't see how you, if town, would want that. But there is no effort here from you to go anywhere with my lynch, like it is the end result that is more important for you than the lead-up to the lynch and the discussion - which is really the meat that town can enjoy from lynches.
RatchetOPB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 07:12 PM   #1304
TehBankertin
[blod]
 
TehBankertin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Wolf Chat
Posts: 16,773
Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
MSU's Vote on Ratchet should probably be considered the critical one. Broke the three-way tie and gave the lead to the R-wagon IIRC. That Vote being a bus would be either an overreaction or a SUPER ballsy play -- so probably not knowingly co-aligned.
I think it deserves a thorough reread with the momentum of the thread taken into account should one of them flip scum. I will say that today MSU not impressing.
TehBankertin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 07:12 PM   #1305
DocEspana
enthusiast
 
DocEspana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: New York
Posts: 78
Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by RatchetOPB View Post
So I'm going to start off here. This slipped by me first time, but upon consideration, I really don't like this post. The issue I have here is that he doesn't seem to care whether he is using fallacies or not. In fact, he doesn't even want to argue that his argument is not fallacious. Scum typically use fallacies because they, if well-disguised, offer a good way of making a persuasive point that disguises the false premise the point itself has. Scum have to poke holes in logic, and come up with false logical assertions to be able to argue almost anything, with fallacies offering a great way to do that, if the execution is right. I don't know about anyone else, but I certainly wouldn't be happy to be told that my point is fallacious, and I would actually look further into whether it actually is.
I dont have fancy analysis with all of your specific terms and inside re ferences about peaks and tells. I'm not trying to play stupid, I just honestly feel like my dialect is evolved in an entirely different direction than yours (soeaki n g of which, I'd love to see how you all handle a SDN game). But this whole response just screams wolf to me. You want me to be specific? I'm gping to have a hard time. It's not an objective "why did you say this" moment and more or a subjective "stuff doesn't make sense" moment. The only objective thing I can say is that ratchet has no idea what the word fallacy means and keeps using it repeatedly as if frequent usage of the term will cement his point in the absence of actual fallacy to refer to.terms matter. Especially terms like fallacy that insult your opponents thoughts.

Quote:





So, here are his post before Slendy appeared. At the time, it looked like Slendy wasn't making it back before the deadline, at least with enough time to shake his votes off. He is clearly trying to push the wagon, and I've bolded the particularly relevant bits for this itself, asking multiple times to get votes on Slendy. No one esle, all day phase, has he pushed this hard. Not even close.


Now this is his first on-topic post since Slendy returned. It's a far cry from his earlier posts, where he was stuck on the Slendy lynch.


And here is the very next post he makes. No one has persuaded him, like he alluded to last post, he just jumped on board. The point he has given is just terrible as well. Asking for reasoning is an integral part in analyzing behaviour and votes. If someone gives a poor reason, then it doesn't reflect well on them, and if someone gives a good reason, but are wrong, it doesn't have to reflect negatively on them. Given the very real chance of me being lynched there, I think getting the actual reasoning out in the open is quite a positive thing when it comes to the aftermath of the lynch, and where to go from there. Additionally, there have been many others who have asked for reasons behind votes on them, and he has never, to my knowledge, objected to them, but somehow his logic only applies here. Applying logic selectively to suit your own purpose is a tool of scum. If you find something suspicious, you find it suspicious, who it is that did it shouldn't matter.
Let's say two things here. Both are weaker than my precious comments. But both carry merit in my mind. The first is that you are basically concocting a situation which didn't exist. Slendy wasn't shaking off votes last minute. Objectively he simply wasnt. It wasnt some overwheoming majority nor was it last minute, you imply both. Idk what it felt like to you, but it, in reality, was not what you described it as. Which is th3 crux of your whole argument here.

Does his reason for shaking votes way before deadline matter? You suggest yes. And normally I'd semi agree. But when someone can shed nearly every vote against 5hem in a short period of time AND it not be critically near closing time, I'd give this a pass.

The second issue is that out of the blue you decide the best way to characterize this is to call it selective application of logic. You're not going to get me chastising you for not sticking incredibly tight to the rules of strict logic. No. I work on feels. (Generally) well referenced feels, but feels. You are ripping someone for being somewhat inconsistent in the Super early game strategy. I view it as more or less a crap shoot. A few other people do. Idk if your target does, but nearly everyone here has been logically inconsistent on day 1. You decided to make this a cardinal issue and isolate only one person for it. To me it's an almost irrelevant issue to be somewhat inconsistent this early (where everyone is grabbing at straws) and it's crazy to be making this a single-player issue at this juncture.
Quote:

And this is another poor argument. He treats a vote that was clearly reasoned as if it has to be outright scummy. I have never considered voting to save yourself scummy, but it wasn't just a vote to save myself either. In the last reads list I posted, I believe I had Slendy at Null, and before that I had said I wuld be willing to swap onto him, before Slendy even returned if memory serves. So to act like it was a reactionary vote out of the blue to counter Slendy is not only warping the facts and context of the matter to ridiculous degrees, it's manipulative.


This is awfully a narrow definition of what constitutes "playing the game". I present peoples arguments as I see them, I often treat Mafia as a debate in fact, so of course I'm interested in what he wants to get an understanding of the logic he is applying. That, to me, is playing the game. It's not like all I did was debate point either, however.


Now this is particularly scummy. I am of the belief that speedlynching is typically bad for Town. I do not agree whatsoever that this sort of chaos is good in the long run. It makes it hard to read people's reactions, because there is a large degree of panic there, and you have also got to factor in how people were able to keep up with the thread and whether they had missed anything at the time in the chaos. A composed, well reasoned lynch that the majority agrees on is always better for town, in my opinion. That way, you know that for the most part, it is in fact the town who is deciding the lynch, and not scum slipping on or making a wagon late on.


And I don't like this post either. I frequently asked for reasons and got very little if anything back (I need to have something to make a defense after all - if the only reason against me is that my posts "could possibly maybe imply something scummy perhaps", there isn't a whole lot to actually defend against ). Which is why I said I have done all I can do. I argued against the points, I gave multiple arguments against other players, and who I wanted lynched, I mean, I can't think of anything else I could have done. Especially considering the timing of the wagon and the peak in activity - it's not like I had a whole day phase to counter arguments by making posts like this, or a lot of time to defend myself at all, the wagon started extremely late at exactly the time where it had enough time left to pick up and could be pushed through using the chaos of the whole end of the day without having to be particularly well reasoned or argued.

The fact is that you have failed to properly address my defense at all. You essentially said "this is clearly scummy" without showing why. It was opportunistic at best.

To conclude, I believe Achro is scum. I believe he is scum with Slendy. I interpret his original vote on Slendy as looking to bus him, as he didn't have a good presence in the thread, was a solid Day 1 lynch and would have gave a lot of town credit to Achro had the lynch gone through. Nearly as soon as Slendy returned, he completely threw out his argument against Slendy and followed his lynch, despite having suspected Slendy to be scum. This complete U-turn to me comes off as hedging his bets - he saw that he had a chance to push through an easy mislynch with a lot of chaos set to happen and planned to use that chaos to go back on Slendy and not have to lose his scum mate Day 1. In that case, even if Slendy happened to be lynched, he could point to the fact that he was pushing Slendy all day phase to deflect accusations away of him trying to pull votes away from Slendy.

That is my interpretation of his actions, as I do not see those posts being made as Town. That is why I am voting for him.

Achromatic
Honestly "too many words". I read it a few times and all I got was that you wanted Achromatic lynched because you disagree with him. Not for A single good reason. But for a combination of "I disagree" reaaons. Ironically, these are your strongest arguments and I can't shoot then down, but they are entirely opinion and subjective experience posed as objective fact. It's hard to say you're wrong. It's only possible to say I mostly (not entirely ) disagree.

The sad part is I want to believe Achromatic is a wolf. I really do. Your arguments actually encourage me to believe it. But only your latter few paragraphs. And the general disingenuousness of the first few seriously undercut it and ruin my ability to jump on your side when you begin to make weakly convincing arguments at the end.

Want me to vote for Achromatic? So do I. But you're gonna have ti make much stronger arguments for either their suspicion or your innocence when you're my wolf suspicion de jour. It's almost true that the same arguments would hold more water from someone else. Almost.
DocEspana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 07:13 PM   #1306
Slendy
grinder
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 425
Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by MSU View Post
I don't remember what it was a response to and will have to look it up.

Yes, after re-reading them this morning, I was swayed. During the EOD, I wanted to see Ratchet's body vs. Smartbomb BECAUSE Ratchet would have given me insight in the people who followed you vs. those who chose door number 3. Lemme explain.

Smartbomb kinda came out of no where (for me, in the moment, during EOD) and those voting for non-Ratchet seemed desperate to keep it off Ratchet, TBH.

What I saw was....so no one is voting for Cue, Slendy is doing a good job defending himself, no one is moving to Dorian...let's try Smartbomb because Bomb isn't defending himself (very well) right now. Hell, I almost switched to Bomb but decided to stick to my guns (I think because I really just wanted to see how Ratchet would flip). You turned on Ratchet when the guns were on you - out of everyone (including me), you went to him.

It was a little awesome and made me think you are Town because scum could have turned it back on me or Cue who I think would have been lynched. But you went after Ratchet - and i wanted to see it.

Hence, I am sad that Ratchet wasn't lynched because I wanted to know more about you and those who decided to follow you.

(especially since I think 3 of us were voting for you before you came on - except Cue who kept switching? Would have to go and see her voting pattern).

Make sense?
Meh, I suppose that does make sense, MSU. Still kind of find myself agreeing with Riki in the manner that I find your 'conciseness' lacking. Like, you've just selected to follow the Ratchet-wagon, but don't really have any actual CONTENT to back it up, more like using pretty words to echo my sentiments?

Also you seem to be ignoring Ratchet's responses (and the games he linked, though I can understand not going through them for several reasons that aren't alignment-indicative), so your Vote on R does seem like it's convenient more so than backed up by conviction...?

Let's hear some more words/elaboration from you, in other words.
Slendy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 07:14 PM   #1307
Riki
adept
 
Riki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,123
Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by MSU View Post
I don't remember what it was a response to and will have to look it up.

Yes, after re-reading them this morning, I was swayed. During the EOD, I wanted to see Ratchet's body vs. Smartbomb BECAUSE Ratchet would have given me insight in the people who followed you vs. those who chose door number 3. Lemme explain.

Smartbomb kinda came out of no where (for me, in the moment, during EOD) and those voting for non-Ratchet seemed desperate to keep it off Ratchet, TBH.

What I saw was....so no one is voting for Cue, Slendy is doing a good job defending himself, no one is moving to Dorian...let's try Smartbomb because Bomb isn't defending himself (very well) right now. Hell, I almost switched to Bomb but decided to stick to my guns (I think because I really just wanted to see how Ratchet would flip). You turned on Ratchet when the guns were on you - out of everyone (including me), you went to him.

It was a little awesome and made me think you are Town because scum could have turned it back on me or Cue who I think would have been lynched. But you went after Ratchet - and i wanted to see it.

Hence, I am sad that Ratchet wasn't lynched because I wanted to know more about you and those who decided to follow you.

(especially since I think 3 of us were voting for you before you came on - except Cue who kept switching? Would have to go and see her voting pattern).

Make sense?
so from what i can tell you want ratchet lynched for information? like nothing in this post says anything about how ratchet is scummy, except maybe the part about how people might have been trying to keep votes off of ratchet

although if that were your biggest reason i think you'd put people who were defending ratchet in your top 3 instead of people who weren't around like dorian/road
Riki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 07:17 PM   #1308
MSU
journeyman
 
MSU's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Central City
Posts: 247
Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riki View Post
in his post above the one you quoted, he says that he hasn't finished posting his thoughts because he's busy at work

but anyway, more importantly, why do these things make him mafia iyo?

like these don't really seem like real reasons imo
It was because of this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dorian78 View Post
That was coming in the summary at the end. Sorry - I'm deliberate and not the speediest. I've posted them all so far but Ratchet.

Save: bhuber, Slendy, Riki
Shoot: Doc, road, Ratchet

I had a tough time picking a third, and I'm most hesitant about Ratchet. I'll explain more after I deal with work.
The only one he didn't do was Ratchet. And Ratchet was on his top 3 scum.

I know he has stuff to do but when you are making lists, order matters.

For instance, the reason I ask people to do a 3 X 3 and is that most people will put the "Towniest person" first on their list of three and then the least sure on of the three on the bottom.

Same with mafia.

Then, when I ask you to kill/save one, it is fascinating how often the top spot mafia and top spot town are the ones you kill and save, but ONLY when you are telling the truth and aren't really thinking about it. Sometimes I catch people messing up. Is it fool proof? No. But you wouldn't believe how often it does work.

If you are lying and you are mafia and don't really care, you mix it up and sometimes, mess it up.

Because as mafia, you don't have a top 3 town and mafia and you start over analyzing who you want to save vs. kill because how will that look to the town and do you put your scum buddies in the kill or save list, etc etc etc.

It's a small thing but something I like doing.

I didn't like how Dorian said Ratchet was in his top 3 mafia and was the only one he didn't do a read of.

Hence, he got on my list.

Again, not fool proof but enough to make me wonder and go "huh?"
MSU is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 07:18 PM   #1309
MSU
journeyman
 
MSU's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Central City
Posts: 247
Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by TehBankertin View Post
I think it deserves a thorough reread with the momentum of the thread taken into account should one of them flip scum. I will say that today MSU not impressing.
I really think that we all should take a moment and really re-read the last 90 minutes of yesterday. Honestly. Not ISO, but the progression. I did this morning.
MSU is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 07:22 PM   #1310
TehBankertin
[blod]
 
TehBankertin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Wolf Chat
Posts: 16,773
Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by MSU View Post
I really think that we all should take a moment and really re-read the last 90 minutes of yesterday. Honestly. Not ISO, but the progression. I did this morning.
Fun! So ratchet is dying in your eyes. Confirmed scum? How many scum were on smartbomb? Sorry if I missed it.
TehBankertin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 07:23 PM   #1311
TehBankertin
[blod]
 
TehBankertin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Wolf Chat
Posts: 16,773
Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Ratchet you almost died yesterday there is a vote on you. How are you not talking more about how the people on your wagon on confirmed wolves in your eyes?

Like if it were me I'd be dual wielding pitchforks and torches trying to stab and poke them all. If you're town SCUM TRIED TO KILL YOU YESTERDAY right? Like go into detail about how they're scum not how townies are town.
TehBankertin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 07:23 PM   #1312
MSU
journeyman
 
MSU's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Central City
Posts: 247
Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
Meh, I suppose that does make sense, MSU. Still kind of find myself agreeing with Riki in the manner that I find your 'conciseness' lacking. Like, you've just selected to follow the Ratchet-wagon, but don't really have any actual CONTENT to back it up, more like using pretty words to echo my sentiments?

Also you seem to be ignoring Ratchet's responses (and the games he linked, though I can understand not going through them for several reasons that aren't alignment-indicative), so your Vote on R does seem like it's convenient more so than backed up by conviction...?

Let's hear some more words/elaboration from you, in other words.
I don't think I have voted on Ratchet (memory of a gold fish)....more like I am putting pressure on him to talk more.

I am never concise, in RL or in mafia. Ask my friends on my boards. I type how I think...which is maddening to people who have to read it and try to understand.

If you want concise from me, it ain't going to happen. What you will find thought is a lot of nuggets that pop out. And you will love me for them.

People are saying my game is off - please go and re-read the EOD yesterday.

I honestly don't want to tell you what to look for though. Just let me know what you think. If you go back and see nothing, then that's fine. But take a real gander.
MSU is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 07:24 PM   #1313
TehBankertin
[blod]
 
TehBankertin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Wolf Chat
Posts: 16,773
Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

DOC!!!! You're here and posting walls of text thats awesome.

So we're trying to lynch some wolves who should we start with? Also bonus points for why!
TehBankertin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 07:26 PM   #1314
MSU
journeyman
 
MSU's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Central City
Posts: 247
Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riki View Post
so from what i can tell you want ratchet lynched for information? like nothing in this post says anything about how ratchet is scummy, except maybe the part about how people might have been trying to keep votes off of ratchet

although if that were your biggest reason i think you'd put people who were defending ratchet in your top 3 instead of people who weren't around like dorian/road
Yesterday, I wanted to lynch Ratchet for that information as I explained above.

Today, after re-reading things, he leans heavy scum for me.

Sometimes, and this is my fault, I post in hyperbole. I forget on these threads, you all don't "know" me like they do on my boards (been playing for almost 8 years there). It's odd for me.
MSU is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 07:28 PM   #1315
DocEspana
enthusiast
 
DocEspana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: New York
Posts: 78
Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Honestly the only defense I can offer to thee or four people listing me as their near top mafia read is that my name is docespana. I'm from a physicIan website. Literally every single one of your arguments has centered around the fact that I have contributed at a moderate level (not that I said a single thing wrong) and that you fear the mafia "back off" technique. I've seen it. I know it. I don't blame you. But I've made zero excuses from day one. I've told you I'm a l most exclusively active at night and that's when I'm on shift in the emergency department. While my posts my only hint at it, I've spent a comical amount of time in the early AM reading posts I've missed whole asleep for the peak posting hours.

If everyone's argument is that I'm a busy doctor, it's totally non game related targeting and also not gonna net you a wolf. Since no one has any game related arguments against me (especially after I got more in the groove of stuff later in day 1s cycle ) I'd hope some of th3 suspicion would come off of me.

Is asking for suspicion off fo me suspicious? Probably. But what else can I do in this situation with 1-2 actual votes and 2-3 highly suspicious people all
over the same issue (my nocturnal schedule)? I'm gonna cll them to eith er take me to task and show why they voted for me, or to back off.
DocEspana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 07:29 PM   #1316
MSU
journeyman
 
MSU's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Central City
Posts: 247
Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by TehBankertin View Post
Fun! So ratchet is dying in your eyes. Confirmed scum? How many scum were on smartbomb? Sorry if I missed it.
I think there was one more on Smartbomb and one not voting for either. If Ratchet is scum.

Process of elimination, I still trust you for the reasons stated. Cue is dead and town. That leaves Dorian and Riki. Hence, I started in on Dorian first.

@Banksy - if Ratchet is flips scum, what is your impressions of yesterday?
MSU is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 07:29 PM   #1317
RatchetOPB
centurion
 
RatchetOPB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: England
Posts: 108
Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocEspana View Post
I dont have fancy analysis with all of your specific terms and inside re ferences about peaks and tells. I'm not trying to play stupid, I just honestly feel like my dialect is evolved in an entirely different direction than yours (soeaki n g of which, I'd love to see how you all handle a SDN game). But this whole response just screams wolf to me. You want me to be specific? I'm gping to have a hard time. It's not an objective "why did you say this" moment and more or a subjective "stuff doesn't make sense" moment. The only objective thing I can say is that ratchet has no idea what the word fallacy means and keeps using it repeatedly as if frequent usage of the term will cement his point in the absence of actual fallacy to refer to.terms matter. Especially terms like fallacy that insult your opponents thoughts.
Now I take this personally. Fallacy - mistaken principle of logic or belief. Anchro was using the 7for7 fallacy, which I pointed out at the time. I never said that made him wrong, I said I'm not going to follow his reasoning because of it. I find this to be completely unnecessary and needlessly antagonistic on your behalf though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocEspana View Post
Let's say two things here. Both are weaker than my precious comments. But both carry merit in my mind. The first is that you are basically concocting a situation which didn't exist. Slendy wasn't shaking off votes last minute. Objectively he simply wasnt. It wasnt some overwheoming majority nor was it last minute, you imply both. Idk what it felt like to you, but it, in reality, was not what you described it as. Which is th3 crux of your whole argument here.
It was within the last 40 minutes of the day. In a 36 hour day, that's pretty last minute. Your point on it not having an overwhelming majority doesn't really stand up either, seeing as no one ever had more than maybe 5 or 6 votes on them at any one time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocEspana View Post
Does his reason for shaking votes way before deadline matter? You suggest yes. And normally I'd semi agree. But when someone can shed nearly every vote against 5hem in a short period of time AND it not be critically near closing time, I'd give this a pass.
What is critically near closing time then, pray tell, if not well within the last hour?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocEspana View Post
The second issue is that out of the blue you decide the best way to characterize this is to call it selective application of logic. You're not going to get me chastising you for not sticking incredibly tight to the rules of strict logic. No. I work on feels. (Generally) well referenced feels, but feels. You are ripping someone for being somewhat inconsistent in the Super early game strategy. I view it as more or less a crap shoot. A few other people do. Idk if your target does, but nearly everyone here has been logically inconsistent on day 1. You decided to make this a cardinal issue and isolate only one person for it. To me it's an almost irrelevant issue to be somewhat inconsistent this early (where everyone is grabbing at straws) and it's crazy to be making this a single-player issue at this juncture.
I'd say the inconsistency is pretty major though. I certainly don't view Day 1 as a crap shoot, and that alone shouldn't be used to discredit my argument anyway, and to me, showing to be strongly in favour of one wagon, then following the subject of that wagon for another one barely discussed throughout the day is pretty suspect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocEspana View Post
Honestly "too many words". I read it a few times and all I got was that you wanted Achromatic lynched because you disagree with him. Not for A single good reason. But for a combination of "I disagree" reaaons. Ironically, these are your strongest arguments and I can't shoot then down, but they are entirely opinion and subjective experience posed as objective fact. It's hard to say you're wrong. It's only possible to say I mostly (not entirely ) disagree.
You are only saying there isn't a good reason to be found because apparently, you think it's fine to ignore major inconsistencies on Day 1. I don't. The fact of the matter is we clearly view the importance of Day 1 differently, and I think my opinion on Day 1 is important to consider here when judging my argument, for context if nothing else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocEspana View Post
The sad part is I want to believe Achromatic is a wolf. I really do. Your arguments actually encourage me to believe it. But only your latter few paragraphs. And the general disingenuousness of the first few seriously undercut it and ruin my ability to jump on your side when you begin to make weakly convincing arguments at the end.
It's funny you say that, because the end was almost entirely my interpretation on the matter and not discussing the in-thread evidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocEspana View Post
Want me to vote for Achromatic? So do I. But you're gonna have ti make much stronger arguments for either their suspicion or your innocence when you're my wolf suspicion de jour. It's almost true that the same arguments would hold more water from someone else. Almost.
I've never claimed my argument against Achro is enough to get him lynched right there and then. Ever. However, I feel like you have quite a biased review here, and you haven't even considered my perspective on the argument, and why I would possibly see it this way. You've just said "I don't think this is right so it's weak because it is based on a foundation I disagree with fundamentally".
RatchetOPB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 07:31 PM   #1318
MSU
journeyman
 
MSU's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Central City
Posts: 247
Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Gut check for everyone - am I making sense in my thinking? Or am I still not solid enough or you don't understand me?

It all makes perfect sense in my head....
MSU is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 07:31 PM   #1319
Riki
adept
 
Riki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,123
Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by MSU View Post
It was because of this:

The only one he didn't do was Ratchet. And Ratchet was on his top 3 scum.

I know he has stuff to do but when you are making lists, order matters.

For instance, the reason I ask people to do a 3 X 3 and is that most people will put the "Towniest person" first on their list of three and then the least sure on of the three on the bottom.

Same with mafia.

Then, when I ask you to kill/save one, it is fascinating how often the top spot mafia and top spot town are the ones you kill and save, but ONLY when you are telling the truth and aren't really thinking about it. Sometimes I catch people messing up. Is it fool proof? No. But you wouldn't believe how often it does work.

If you are lying and you are mafia and don't really care, you mix it up and sometimes, mess it up.

Because as mafia, you don't have a top 3 town and mafia and you start over analyzing who you want to save vs. kill because how will that look to the town and do you put your scum buddies in the kill or save list, etc etc etc.

It's a small thing but something I like doing.

I didn't like how Dorian said Ratchet was in his top 3 mafia and was the only one he didn't do a read of.

Hence, he got on my list.

Again, not fool proof but enough to make me wonder and go "huh?"
he also said he was doing ratchet last because that was the player he was having the hardest time reevaluating, which i think is pretty believable and i'd also probably agree with that statement

@bolded, what's stopping mafia from just re-ordering their list after they decide who they've wanted to kill or save? like if anything i think mafia would be most conscious of their order just in case there are people like you who look into that stuff lol

or generally mafia just make up their reads and then put them together (in order) afterwards, i doubt someone comes up with the order first and then works out how to justify the reads so the order makes sense after, that seems pretty backwards

do you have anything like, related to his content that you think is scummy? he's posted a decent amount of stuff today
Riki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 07:32 PM   #1320
RatchetOPB
centurion
 
RatchetOPB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: England
Posts: 108
Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by TehBankertin View Post
Ratchet you almost died yesterday there is a vote on you. How are you not talking more about how the people on your wagon on confirmed wolves in your eyes?

Like if it were me I'd be dual wielding pitchforks and torches trying to stab and poke them all. If you're town SCUM TRIED TO KILL YOU YESTERDAY right? Like go into detail about how they're scum not how townies are town.
Haven't I already done that? I argued at length with Slendy, who as on there. I'm beginning to get something going with MRU, and I already made that large argument against Achro at the start of the day. A lot of the points I've raised have either fettered out or still stand, and there isn't much I can add while that remains the case.
RatchetOPB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 07:32 PM   #1321
Riki
adept
 
Riki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,123
Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by TehBankertin View Post
If you're town SCUM TRIED TO KILL YOU YESTERDAY right? Like go into detail about how they're scum not how townies are town.
if all the wagons were town not necessarily
Riki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 07:33 PM   #1322
Riki
adept
 
Riki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,123
Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by MSU View Post
Today, after re-reading things, he leans heavy scum for me.
what are these reasons?
Riki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 07:33 PM   #1323
DocEspana
enthusiast
 
DocEspana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: New York
Posts: 78
Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

If it wasn't clear, what I was implying when I said my name was docespana (as if that means something) was that I'm a physician and I can't exactly just free uo time willy nilly. You get all if my free time when I have it, but you're actively competing against patients dying and my sleep and food needs for my attention.
DocEspana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 07:34 PM   #1324
fontisian
grinder
 
fontisian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: DarkLordPotter
Posts: 596
Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by road View Post
I couldnt stay awake up to eod. Sry for that. i know this makes me look bad, but im not gonna use effort in defending myself. I have been quite busy and are also most of gameday2, and i just couldnt keep myself up (it is late in danish timezone).
...
You say as you defend yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
Also cue did try to change to Ratchet but that came late. A moot point since cue is teh deadz now, but definitely wouldn't have been anything to hold AGAINST him.
I actually thought the late switch was intentional at the time and was gearing up to lynch them both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achromatic View Post
Between you and I it never occurred to me that Slendy wouldn't make it back before deadline when I pushed for him. People kept saying this yesterday and I just voted him because he hadn't shown me anything when I isolated him. By the way, you are calling me a very poor scum player with this logic. "In a game where scum constitutes less than 25%, let's bus day one when someone is afk that makes sense!" I mean... okay sure no one knows my scum play and stuff, but god that's just such a poor play if true. I'm insulted. Also good for you to notice that I thought Slendy appeared much more town when he returned. I couldn't have made it much clearer, I feel.
Actually, I was the one who first suggested a lynch on Slendy, with Cue then offering to join me. You only voted him after that discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achromatic View Post
I find Slendy's thought of "hey, maybe Cue cleared me!" to be pretty on the nose for a scum doing it. It's like that one gif of the old guy going "hello, fellow teenagers" except it'd be "hello, fellow town members." Seems to be really weird play from a scum to be that opportunistic.
I've only been in one comparable situation, where a bodyguard (a doc who dies in the place the person he saves) died night 1. A scum made this long ass post explaining why he was the obvious protect. As it happens, he was, and the scumteam had decided to shoot the bodyguard for some reason. I do love the gif, though.

As a general note, I think I'm the only woman in this game, so whenever someone uses "her" or "she" to refer to someone else, it's very confusing. Stop that.

Also, Slendy, my name is fontisian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TehBankertin View Post
Fonti probably doesn't make that kill in the night I don't think but her pushing me is insane since I am aware of the lack of a medic in the game and if I was scum could easy move my vote and pressure to cue whom would then be forced to claim cop in which case I as a wolf would KNOW he was cop and not be guessing which is far favorable. Especially since I would be knowingly leading a misslynch onto smartbomb and am therefore a prime check target in the night. .
Yeah, yeah, fair enough. I'm still a little weirded out by 1.You being so sure that cue was town, when I saw him as so scummy and 2.Your reversal on Smartbomb. Didn't you say that you disliked the early pressure on him in the middle of the Day? Also, you trying to tell me to trust your town reads when I was /telling/ you SmartBomb was town. That bothers me.

Slendy's arguments seem very town through all of this.

The people who townread are underestimate my arrogance, but I'll take it.

And just because I'm super paranoid: I do not trust Banks and Achro. Achro especially, because he always seems to be right behind a townie making a push or spewing weird logic to explain townreads. Banks is slightly better, because at least I agree with him on road. Do not let them slide through the game.

road
Hi. You've made two extremely self-conscious posts now. I kind of want to kill you for them. You understand.

Wait, never mind, Banks switched to MSU, which is ok from a vote logic perspective, but muh. Banks, baby, come back to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocEspana View Post
Want me to vote for Achromatic? So do I. But you're gonna have ti make much stronger arguments for either their suspicion or your innocence when you're my wolf suspicion de jour. It's almost true that the same arguments would hold more water from someone else. Almost.
I'm just going to reiterate that Doc is my N0 peek.
fontisian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2015, 07:37 PM   #1325
fontisian
grinder
 
fontisian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: DarkLordPotter
Posts: 596
Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by MSU View Post
Gut check for everyone - am I making sense in my thinking? Or am I still not solid enough or you don't understand me?

It all makes perfect sense in my head....
It makes sense, but lack details. Give names of the likely scum in scum!Ratchet worlds.
fontisian is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive