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Old 06-17-2015, 12:56 PM   #1176
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
Another quickie, Ratchet: why didn't you want to consider Voting Doc at the end of the Phase?
He wasn't there to defend himself, primarily. It wouldn't have been fair to spring up a wagon that late when the person in question isn't even there. I don't think his lynch was good information wise either.
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SHC=Seer Hunt Clear. Mafia probably hit Cue cause they thought he was the Cop. That means Mafia saw a fake N0-townpeek from Cue, and believed it, meaning the person cue allegedly had as their N0-peek is Town.
Gotcha.
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Without having combed all of cue's posts it would appear that the SHC-person is either Achro (due to cue buddying him so heavily, and apparently repeatedly saying the believed them to be Town) or me (due to weirdly calling me the Cop for the first half of the Phase and not really saying anything other than I must be Town for it), so regardless of which way it goes that makes your wagon very clean-looking.
I see your reaosning, but it comes off as a stretch to me. Like, it relies on the assumption that Mafia killed him because they thought he was fake hinting Cop, and not for any other reason, and then assume he cleared someone, and then assume that someone was you or Achro. I particularly do not like how you've used it to try and get yourself cleared as town. It's scum logic, to me.
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Old 06-17-2015, 12:57 PM   #1177
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

In a game of this format, Ratchet, when Cue cast the deciding vote on a town lynch, what other possible reason could there be to night kill Cue other than they thought he was the cop?
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Old 06-17-2015, 12:58 PM   #1178
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
And if you believe that the whole Scumteam Voted you, as you implied in the post I responded to, that would make all the other wagons (except for the one on me) Town-wagons. Meaning Scum wasn't in any need to 1) bus me like that in the first place, nor 2) create a new wagon out of thin air when all the existing alternatives must've been Town.
You've either misunderstood my point, or you are deliberately misinterpreting it. I don't think the whole scum team voted for me. I think you/Achro OR MSO being the scum. Again, and you've done this a few times, you're strawmanning my argument to represent it as something you then feel comfortable arguing against. I find it scummy.
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Old 06-17-2015, 01:00 PM   #1179
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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Originally Posted by Achromatic View Post
In a game of this format, Ratchet, when Cue cast the deciding vote on a town lynch, what other possible reason could there be to night kill Cue other than they thought he was the cop?
Well, let's see Achro, and we're going to get into WIFOM here:
  • The could have done it in order to get Slendy/yourself cleared, which is what Slendy has tried to argue
  • They could be wanting to manipulate the information the kill offers
  • They may have considered him to be a threat to them

I mean, I could go on, but there are a number of reasons why Cue could have been killed. Some more probable than others, true, but multiple reasons all the same.
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Old 06-17-2015, 01:03 PM   #1180
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

I like to give scum the benefit of being intelligent, and the most intelligent course is trying to find the cop before it can clear multiple people/find scum. Point one is pretty silly when you consider real cop could, in this theory, scan one of us 'so much for being cleared.' Manipulating information doesn't matter as much as a hard scan. No player is as much of a threat as a cop who is getting scans.
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Old 06-17-2015, 01:04 PM   #1181
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Also I don't consider this wifom. I consider this mafia strategy.
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Old 06-17-2015, 01:12 PM   #1182
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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Also I don't consider this wifom. I consider this mafia strategy.
What is WIFOM?
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Old 06-17-2015, 01:13 PM   #1183
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Alright so things to say about Ratchet.

Most of the content provided by Ratchet (atleast 75% percent of his posts/content but maybe even more) is responses to mechanics-related talk and general 'mafia-playing philosophy'. Ratchet has sneakily been racking up his postcount without doing other than Voting Doc and raising voices of discrediting, in the form of vague suspicions and some instances of actually disagreeing with people reads-wise.

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I agree on this. Especially considering how he seperated them into 2 posts, I thought we'd have a comprehensive list. We had about 3 in each post, with a short paragraph (that really gave very little) for each one. I'm scum reading him for that (need to see his later reactions).
This was #626 or something like that. During the long string of posts Ratchet made while the Thread was silent. Quoted this because I found it amusing MSU's list wasn't sufficient when the list Ratchet himself provided a couple of posts later was very similar:

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Achromatic - Lean Town (Weak) - I liked his responses to me earlier, and I find his posts are mostly on-point. It's weak because a) - He's clearly a great player, so it wouldn't be difficult for him to convey this as scum, and b) - because I'm only willing to take logic and agreeable points so far in this game.

bhuber2010 - Null - I haven't seen enough of him to get any sort of solid read on him. From the few posts he did have, I was getting town vibes from them, but it's just not enough.

cue5c - Lean Scum - I'm just not seeing where he looks like town, to me. I can see why he will be doing what he is doing, as I mentioned earlier, but his tone is coming across as scummy, to me, and I'm not agreeing with the logic that he's too bold to be scum. I also think he's reaching very far out on his point against me, so it's possible I'm a little biased here.

DocEspana - Lean Scum - Only for a seemingly smaller reason than others, but I really don't like his reason with pulling up the bios. It's very weak to me, and looks more like trying to justify doing so rather than doing so to meet and ends.

dorian78 - Lean Town - Simply because I find myself agreeing with him a lot, as evidenced by the fact I do not have many, if any, replies to him.

fontisian - Lean Town - As above, I think I'm somehow mixing these two up as well.

MSU - Lean Scum - My strongest scum read at the moment. I've provided the reasons, but his reads are really weak and vague, which in my experience equals scum reads, and his reaction to pressure was quite poor in my opinion.

RatchetOPB - Town - Obvious Town Ratchet is obvious.

Riki - Lean Town - I like his questioning, and his arguments make sense even if I don't agree with them. I especially like his reads list, as it genuinely looks like effort has been put into them.

road - Null - I like most of his posts, but I'm getting vibes that tell me I shouldn't be. Really weak read here I know, but I can't read road right now, hoping that changes later on as there has been plenty of content from him (similar to his sentiments for me actually).

Slendy - Null - I haven't seen much of him lately, but I've given my thoughts on his beginning. It does look a bit weak looking back, although I think it is noteworthy that he was inconsistent with his logic initially.

SmartBomb - Lean Town - I've completely changed my mind on SmartBomb. I thought his start was quite scummy largely, but since then I like his posts and his reasoning. Also, he's going to keep me company for a bit.

TehBankertin - Lean Town, strongest town read. I understand that scum can be very active and it works as a smokescreen, but I can't really hold a possibility that can apply to anyone active against him fairly. I like his questioning, his confidence and his reads, even if we align up rather poorly.
bhuber+road being null and dorian+fontisiac being Town seems arbitrarily decided, when looking at the reasoning provided.

Mechanical reads-lists such as the one above are always somewhat likelier to come from Scum than from Town, for the simple reason that pouring it all out in one post is convenient for 1) appearing contributive (walls of text have got to be good, rite?) 2) not having to comment in-real-time on progression on reads (which is more likely to come from Townies and only experienced Scum fabricate as that is just the kind of train-of-thought that is most clearly visible and clears most players the easiest) and 3) hiding the lack of sincerity of the reads provided. Also I always find it sketch-y to include oneself in a reads list as that just screams appearing-accurate-for-the-sake-of-not-looking-bad (as does including every single Player even if there's not much to say about them) but that might just be a pet peeve of mine.

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Originally Posted by RatchetOPB View Post
So, reads:

So far, I have banks at lean town. He's prompting discussion, questioning people and being proactive in the game. I consider all that to be town play, so it's a good start from him.

SmartBomb is a slight lean scum. As I've alluded to, I didn't like his first post but he has been more on-point afterwards I believe.

Slendy is right on null. It's going to take me a while to get a read on him for me, because while I don't outright agree with what he has said at times, it's still a positive contribution. Early pressure was good as well.

fonti has been mostly on point as well, although I'd like to know his argument for townreading bomb, and more specifically, road.
The bolded and underlined still feels REALLY out of place. Like, why was my almost-RVS-vote on Ratchet 'good'? And where did you ask me for clarification, Ratchet? Do you mean the post below?

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Originally Posted by RatchetOPB View Post
That's why I added it on at the end of my little read paragraph. I think I pretty much covered anything else you have done by saying that, while I might not agree with all of what you are saying, it is a positive contribution nonetheless.

When did I ever say that your initial vote was the bit that merits the most acknowledgement? As it was only a small paragraph, not a large in-depth read, it was certainly the most specific part of your play I mentioned, but I thought it was rather clear that by putting it at the end of the paragraph, it was a little addition to note, and not the main point I was conveying. I don't know how you interpreted it that way either.
You only question me about what I was asking you at the time, in other words, whether the pressure vote -comment was actually the most noteworthy thing IYO or not. I don't see you asking me about whether the Vote was pressure or not until end-of-the-Phase. Which not only seems reactionary but also opportunistic, and a possible slip in your narrative.

For clarity's sake, here is the end-of-Phase post where Ratchet claims he already asked me about the Vote being pressure much earlier:

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Originally Posted by RatchetOPB View Post
Because I had no reason to believe it wasn't pressure. In fact, when I said it was, you asked me to clarify, and I did, and asked you if I was mistaken in that assumption, so actually Slendy, I did ask much earlier.


Yeah, but that doesn't automatically mean more information. If Slendy flips scum, then we have a good argument for a wagon made here to save him, whereas with Cue, we don't really have too many pointers to go for afterwards. More posts or not, I don't see how Cue offers more information here.
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That doesn't make a great deal of sense to me. If he votes for you, tells you that you have done /something/ suspicious, but wont tell you what, I don't think it is going to prevent you from looking at your play and changing it up a bit to see what it is that was bothering him. What you said you'd typically do makes far more sense, so I'm not buying into the claim that it was to see if you will keep doing it. If it was, it should have been better executed.
Why have you never asked me about the Dorian-vote, Ratchet? You haven't said whether you give me a pass for it nor whether you find it fishy, while that is pretty much the only 'suspicious' thing you mention me ever doing (prior to Voting you). If you only throw negative comments for the sake of throwing them instead of trying to pursue whether they are legitimate arguments or not, that seems like mudslinging instead of gamesolving, and your handling of the suspicion on me doesn't look like the latter.

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Originally Posted by RatchetOPB View Post
H-how? How is asking someone who they are happy with lynching reeking of scum?

Slendy

I don't want to be lynched, I think your lynch will give a lot of information, especially on those on my wagon and your argument here is almost non-existent.
Stuff like the 'H-how?' seems awfully self-aware and pings me -- some people just like to "roleplay" like that, but it's noteworthy nonetheless.

What's more interesting wrt this post IMO is the "why me?" attitude. Scum often feel personally insulted if they feel they get suspected for the wrong reasons, and the post above coming after THIS post:
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Originally Posted by RatchetOPB View Post
You are expressing a degree of surprise that people are not following your line of thought when you have described that thought as "possible coasting"? You dismiss one of your reads as playstyle indicative, but apparently that isn't the case for me for some reason that you failed to provide. Can you at least expand on your argument here please?
does ring out to me as "why me fry me" (this post came after I dropped the Dorian-vote I had had for most of the Phase, and is in response to that). There are some Players who like to Appeal to Emotion -- Ratchet is clearly of the playertype who wishes to Appeal to Logic and bases his actions on that as either affiliation.

Sponging Riki end-of-Phase seemed like an attempt to save himself more than anything else -- asking stuff like
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Originally Posted by RatchetOPB View Post
Who are you down for lynching?
and anticipating someone to notice that they are not, in their own opinion, being self-preservational
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Originally Posted by RatchetOPB View Post
I'm glad you picked up on this.
seems self-aware in a Scummy way to me, not a Town way. Also the question raised by Achro still stands -- how does it make any gamesolving sense to ignore cue as a possible Lynch? I can see it making sense self-preservationally, since I was more 'acceptable' as a Mislynch due to people not having explicitly stated why they didn't want to Lynch me anymore, meaning Voting for cue could've seemed to risky for Ratchet.

Banks was of the opinion that the string of posts by Ratchet around 630ish (can be found in the quotes above) was Town-tell-y. I very much disagree; it's clearly Ratchet's Modus Operandi, not a Towntell, and the content of said posts still seems like plausibly "posting for the sake of posting". I did find some of road's consecutive posts to have the spirit Banks described Ratchet's string of posts having, for whatever that's worth. Also for whatever it's worth, I've had Banks as a Townread since the start but I do find myself disagreeing with his tonereads a lot, which hopefully doesn't mean I've approached the matter of reading this playerbase from the wrong angle entirely.
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Old 06-17-2015, 01:13 PM   #1184
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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I rarely get strong scumreads on day 1, and sometimes not even on day 2. I usually do much better with townreads, though this game is messing with my head, and it's magnitudes more difficult without roleclaims happening all over the place. By the end of the day, I had a very slight scumread on Doc, partly for having way more scumreads than I'm used to town players having at that point. I had been evaluating cue all day back and forth, even if it didn't quite land in scum territory by the time I left. Obviously my biggest scumread was on SmartBomb.

I didn't feel like road was pointing a gun at me. He asked me about my townreads, I gave him my townreads. road was not a particularly strong townread for me at the time.
@Dorian

3X3 - same as I did with Ratchet

Who are 3 top town and 3 top scum

Who would you kill and who would you reward and send to Disney World?
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Old 06-17-2015, 01:16 PM   #1185
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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Originally Posted by Achromatic View Post
I like to give scum the benefit of being intelligent, and the most intelligent course is trying to find the cop before it can clear multiple people/find scum. Point one is pretty silly when you consider real cop could, in this theory, scan one of us 'so much for being cleared.' Manipulating information doesn't matter as much as a hard scan. No player is as much of a threat as a cop who is getting scans.
True, I'm not arguing that, I'm saying that it is very possible and even probable to me that Cue could have been killed for reasons other than being a cop. Even so, you could apply the argument of point one and simply attach the assumption that Cue was the Cop and it is still the same premise.
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Also I don't consider this wifom. I consider this mafia strategy.
I was more meaning about this:
I claim you killed Cue

You say you were potentially cleared as Town by Cue (well, Slendy did, but lets work with this example for arguments sake)

I say you could have killed Cue for that reason, knowing it would work in your favour

You then say that as scum you would have considered that, so you wouldn't have killed Cue.

As so on and so forth. We'll never get out of the circle.
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Old 06-17-2015, 01:16 PM   #1186
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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You've either misunderstood my point, or you are deliberately misinterpreting it. I don't think the whole scum team voted for me. I think you/Achro OR MSO being the scum. Again, and you've done this a few times, you're strawmanning my argument to represent it as something you then feel comfortable arguing against. I find it scummy.
Well, you DID have us three as your Scum-reads, and there's three Scum in this game, so what I was trying to tell you is that regardless of which of me/Achro is SHC, you're very likely to be missing ATLEAST two Scum and should be looking elsewhere too. Assuming you're Town.

Also please pretty please when you respond to my big post just now DON'T QUOTE THE ENTIRETY the Thread becomes unreadable otherwise. :P
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Old 06-17-2015, 01:22 PM   #1187
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Btw, Ratchet, why Achro over me?
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Old 06-17-2015, 01:24 PM   #1188
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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Do you still feel the same way [about Ratchet] after the flip? If so, why? If not, why?
I see this, and will get to it when I reevaluate everyone. Gah! I also see the 3x3 request. I can't keep up fast enough. I'll include that too. First, my thoughts on end of day and cue as the nightkill.

The vote-swapping that happened at the end of day - sweet mother of all that's holy. I've spent all morning reading over it twice to really form an idea of what actually happened, and I need to write it out so I don't forget and can use this a reference point.

5 people were on MSU before we started looking elsewhere. I think it was bhuber, Banks, Riki, smartbomb, and Ratchet. Riki and Banks move over to me, road and fontisian solidify on cue, Achromatic starts the slendy push, and we wind up with a 3-way tie between us. Slendy starts the push on Ratchet and pretty much everyone voting Slendy is so convinced by it that rather than vote for him they'd rather vote with him. In the meantime, Banks and Riki also decide that, since the votes on me aren't gaining traction, they'd rather vote with me on SmartBomb. Ratchet winds up replacing me in the tie, which is eventually decided by cue, now confirmed innocent.

Wow. Just wow. The biggest takeaway I got from this is that there was a very, very easy slide from Slendy to Ratchet, and that lots of people here think that moving your vote around a bunch at the last second is either a good way to create confusion or a good way to test people for very quick reactions when they don't have time to plan out what they're going to say. Both are true, and thus it's a null tell, but I vastly prefer the less confusing route - trying to catch people in quick reactions is difficult, at least for me.

I was quite surprised to see cue as the nightkill. Typically the 3rd place for the lynch has enough suspicion that the mafia wants them alive. Maybe they felt too few people were willing to lynch him to ever get a mislynch?

I see several people thinking it was a seer hunt, but I don't see anything from cue as a clear enough hint at a scan that would justify that line of thought. Then again, this whole leaving hints at scans thing is brand new to me. Still, I disagree that it was absolutely a seer hunt, and won't be considering that when reevaluating. I think seer hunt would have come to one of many other conclusions before cue.

In many regards, cue was a brilliant choice, because he kept saying he'd be much more open about everything when he was in danger of being lynched, and killing him means he never did it, and we get quite a bit less info.

It's ironic, because watching the end of day shenanigans, I felt like I finally understood cue. He's the kind of player that does whatever crazy, unexpected, illogical thing you can imagine, consequences-be-damned, to see how people react to it. I've seen people try that before, and because the risk of getting lynched for it was so high, it was almost always tried by town. I doubt I could have been convinced to vote for cue today.

In fact, I think a lot of people were at a point where they wouldn't vote for cue, and who said that on day 1 is definitely going to factor into my reevaluations. They're up next.
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Old 06-17-2015, 01:29 PM   #1189
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Dorian, you seem to be treating your role in this game as a narrator to general events. You're not. You're the tough-skinned gumshoe in the story, not the narrator of it, who tries to see through the other characters.

Whether they be flimsy first-impressions or something more deep, who is what affiliation and why after reading the end-of-the-Phase?
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Old 06-17-2015, 01:31 PM   #1190
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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Dorian, you seem to be treating your role in this game as a narrator to general events. You're not. You're the tough-skinned gumshoe in the story, not the narrator of it, who tries to see through the other characters.

Whether they be flimsy first-impressions or something more deep, who is what affiliation and why after reading the end-of-the-Phase?
Which is why I am hoping he gets to my two questions about him.
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Old 06-17-2015, 01:38 PM   #1191
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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The thing is, convincing one person I'm town in exchange for the power I have isn't worth it. But I will say this: At least one person every game who I think is scum, I will town read them to see how they react to me. He is not a town read to me. His silence is baffling considering he said he needs to be a part of things in order to get reads. He's entirely absent for the most part. I understand backing off if he was the center of discussion and therefore got reads that way, but he's not. He's just accepting being read as town. Surviving to the end means nothing if you don't have any idea of who scum is, and according to him and his self-meta, he's not doing anything to figure that out.

Plus I'm pretty suspicious of anyone who reads me town Day 1. I'm at a disadvantage because others have meta to go off of. I'm not looking at banks previous games and as far as I'm concerned, people calling him town could be teammates going with a general consensus, or people trying to get in his good favor (if he's town). I'm not gonna play that game. If it takes my flip for people to see me as town, that's fine. And if it looks like that's the case, I'll reveal my thoughts. Until then, I'm going to continue down this same path. And I really don't feel like convincing you of anything as you've already made your mind up about me and I have you as a town read and don't like begging. It's more fun to see who follows you since mafia knows I'm not one of them, anyway.
Actually, this could have gotten Cue killed.
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Old 06-17-2015, 01:41 PM   #1192
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Dorian and Ratchet both being confused about cue being a rather obvious Seer Hunt Kill (because there was no reason to assume he couldn't be Mislynched fairly easily) is very interesting -- I feel like either they're both Scum and are trying to spin the Hit as something not too obvious, or the Scumteam is more aware of the SHK-element (and wasn't afk N1) and looking into either of them is a wrong direction entirely.

I don't think any of the Players who are yet to check in are going to ignore the possibility of a SHK the way Dorian and Ratchet did, so mentioning this outloud at this point should be quite a-okay.
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Old 06-17-2015, 01:43 PM   #1193
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Ok. Re-evaluations, including MSU's request for 3x3. Though I have to say, living near Disney World and occasionally working there, I'm not sure how much of a reward that is. Let's start with the easier ones first.

Doc: Has more or less not posted since I had to leave last night. I don't think either town flip reflects much on him, given how absent he's been. No need for a hard reset here, my read remains unchanged. Slight scumread, which is enough to put him as one of my top 3 to shoot.

bhuber: Also has not posted since I had to leave last night, and the flips also don't reflect much on him. No need to reset here, he's still one of my top townreads and one of the 3 to save.

fontisian: Mostly tunneled cue all day. If there's one read cue was absolutely clear on, though, it's that fonti was town, and I'd be remiss to ignore that. My biggest question here is would she have the guts to actually nightkill cue? fonti as mafia doesn't feel right to me, cause leaving cue alive allows her to continue the tunnel, and cue was townreading her and thus not any kind of immediate threat to her. Town for now, not sure if it's top 3, though.

More coming.
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Old 06-17-2015, 01:47 PM   #1194
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Meh, maybe I shouldn't think too much about the confusion, as there's never no way of knowing how the 12-hour interaction-time privately panned out for the Scummiosi. Who was afk, who missed what, and so on.

A couple of tone-related things I find green in Dorian's 1193. Looking forward to seeing more posts from you.

(Yes, I've decided that playing the Good Cop is the proper way of reading you.)
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Old 06-17-2015, 01:47 PM   #1195
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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Dorian, you seem to be treating your role in this game as a narrator to general events. You're not. You're the tough-skinned gumshoe in the story, not the narrator of it, who tries to see through the other characters.

Whether they be flimsy first-impressions or something more deep, who is what affiliation and why after reading the end-of-the-Phase?
I do go over the events, because they are what's most important to me in figuring things out. The reads and the why's come next. You very obviously like to play as the tough-skinned gumshoe, I am not used to doing that.

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Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
Dorian and Ratchet both being confused about cue being a rather obvious Seer Hunt Kill (because there was no reason to assume he couldn't be Mislynched fairly easily) is very interesting -- I feel like either they're both Scum and are trying to spin the Hit as something not too obvious, or the Scumteam is more aware of the SHK-element (and wasn't afk N1) and looking into either of them is a wrong direction entirely.

I don't think any of the Players who are yet to check in are going to ignore the possibility of a SHK the way Dorian and Ratchet did, so mentioning this outloud at this point should be quite a-okay.
I do not think Cue would have been an easy mislynch. I am not discounting a SHK as a possibility, but I don't think it's a strong enough possibility for me to want to let it influence my reads at the moment.
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Old 06-17-2015, 02:02 PM   #1196
RatchetOPB
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
Most of the content provided by Ratchet (atleast 75% percent of his posts/content but maybe even more) is responses to mechanics-related talk and general 'mafia-playing philosophy'. Ratchet has sneakily been racking up his postcount without doing other than Voting Doc and raising voices of discrediting, in the form of vague suspicions and some instances of actually disagreeing with people reads-wise.
75%? You'll have to define what you mean by "mechanics talk" then in that case, and you also fail to note I've agreed with points on occassion, despite saying that if I agree I generally do not respond (see convo with Banks at the start of the game).
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Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
This was #626 or something like that. During the long string of posts Ratchet made while the Thread was silent. Quoted this because I found it amusing MSU's list wasn't sufficient when the list Ratchet himself provided a couple of posts later was very similar:
The difference being that MSU claimed to need to split the posts up, and had done just about nothing before that. I was expecting some commentry on what had actually been, and found the resulting reads lacking.
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Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
bhuber+road being null and dorian+fontisiac being Town seems arbitrarily decided, when looking at the reasoning provided.
It should be noted that most of those were slight town reads, and as I noted with road in particular I barely communicated with. Bhuber at the time had very little content as well - I was completely unable to get a read on him given what we had available in the thread at that point. I fail to see how that is, in any way, "arbitrarily decided".
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Mechanical reads-lists such as the one above are always somewhat likelier to come from Scum than from Town,
What? It is this kind of phrasing that I'm finding most suspect from you. How on earth is playstyle-related reads more likely scum than town? How is the style of reads even alignment indicative? Even if you happen to play in a palce where a style of play is not common, that doesn't make it scummy.
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Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
for the simple reason that pouring it all out in one post is convenient for 1) appearing contributive (walls of text have got to be good, rite?)
I've never, ever claimed that my so called "walls of text" indicate alignment. Indeed, I do them as both town and scum (and I hate the term "wall of text", fyi).
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Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
2) not having to comment in-real-time on progression on reads (which is more likely to come from Townies and only experienced Scum fabricate as that is just the kind of train-of-thought that is most clearly visible and clears most players the easiest)
I made that post at 9:39 AM. I tend to go to sleep between Midnight and 3am, and wake up between 7 and 9am. In that gap, there were over a hundred posts - that changes my reads and I can't change my reads when I'm sleeping. Seeing as I don't usually like doing reads lists often, especially Day 1 (and I can link to a vast amount of game showing this as Town), I've think I've shown relatively clear progression in my reads.
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Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
and 3) hiding the lack of sincerity of the reads provided.
Is this actually a point at all? Sincerity - a vague, subjective measure. This is nothing more than your bias here, and you are trying to present it as an actual point.
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Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
Also I always find it sketch-y to include oneself in a reads list as that just screams appearing-accurate-for-the-sake-of-not-looking-bad (as does including every single Player even if there's not much to say about them) but that might just be a pet peeve of mine.
It was a joke. A light-hearted comment. I think that was quite clear due to what I said for the read itself.
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Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
The bolded and underlined still feels REALLY out of place. Like, why was my almost-RVS-vote on Ratchet 'good'?
Early pressure. I had your early vote down on me as pressure. I don't see what purpose it serves otherwise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
And where did you ask me for clarification, Ratchet? Do you mean the post below?
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Originally Posted by RatchetOPB View Post
I had your early vote down on me as pressure. Am I mistaken in that assumption?
Now you have outright misrepresented my posts. Hell, you yourself quoted this post beforehand.
I had your early vote down on me as pressure. Am I mistaken in that assumption?[/QUOTE]
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Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
You only question me about what I was asking you at the time, in other words, whether the pressure vote -comment was actually the most noteworthy thing IYO or not.
No, I said I had it down as pressure, and whether I was mistaken. You gave some waffly answer about how you could feasibly see a scum flip from me posting third somehow and being ninja'd (by you) seconds before to push me down to forth. I still considered that pressure, and you seem to be flabbergasted at me doing so for reasons I cannot comprehend.
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I don't see you asking me about whether the Vote was pressure or not until end-of-the-Phase.
Then what on earth are you seeing Slendy? I really couldn't be much clearer!
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Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
Which not only seems reactionary but also opportunistic, and a possible slip in your narrative.
Or none of the above, and you have either failed to read what I posted, or you are lying for some reason in the hope that I roll over and don't disprove what you are saying.
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Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
For clarity's sake, here is the end-of-Phase post where Ratchet claims he already asked me about the Vote being pressure much earlier:
And we should also note that you said, in response to this post: "fair enough".
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Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
Why have you never asked me about the Dorian-vote, Ratchet?
I never had a reason to. I'm not going to question each and every single vote, I have to proritise. In fact, I never questioned your vote on me initially. I simply put it down as pressure, and had that as a good thing. You then expressed surprise at why I had it as pressure, and that is the point I asked you whether it was.
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Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
You haven't said whether you give me a pass for it nor whether you find it fishy, while that is pretty much the only 'suspicious' thing you mention me ever doing (prior to Voting you).
I'm not following. You say I had it down as suspicious, but prior to that you said I haven't clarified whether I give you a pass or not. If I said it was suspicious, that is quite clearly not giving you a pass, no? As for your weak beginning, I was referring to how you selectively applied logic, and judging to your reaction, it wasn't for pressure, so I don't know what purpose it served.
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Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
If you only throw negative comments for the sake of throwing them instead of trying to pursue whether they are legitimate arguments or not, that seems like mudslinging instead of gamesolving, and your handling of the suspicion on me doesn't look like the latter.
There wasn't even an argument to be had though. There was so little content from you it was the only thing noteworthy, it wasn't even an argument by any stretch. I can't test the legitimacy of an argument when it's not even an argument in the first place.
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Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
Stuff like the 'H-how?' seems awfully self-aware and pings me -- some people just like to "roleplay" like that, but it's noteworthy nonetheless.
This again makes no sense. There is nothing alignment indicative at expressing surprise at a point made.
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Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
What's more interesting wrt this post IMO is the "why me?" attitude.
But there isn't a why me attitude there. I was asking for an expansion on a statement, because to me it didn't really mean anything itself and certainly didn't serve as much of an argument against me, which is why I wanted to see the reasoning behind that to get an idea of the purpose of the statement.
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Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
Scum often feel personally insulted if they feel they get suspected for the wrong reasons, and the post above coming after THIS post:
But you are completely running with some far out assumption here. In no way am I conveying that I am insulted there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
does ring out to me as "why me fry me" (this post came after I dropped the Dorian-vote I had had for most of the Phase, and is in response to that).
I was pointing out how logic was used for one and not the other, or vice versa. That's bad. To me, that's a scum tell, applying logic when and where it suits. That is exactly what the bolded it getting at.
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Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
There are some Players who like to Appeal to Emotion -- Ratchet is clearly of the playertype who wishes to Appeal to Logic and bases his actions on that as either affiliation.
Exactly. Not sure how this helps your point though, if anything it works against it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
Sponging Riki end-of-Phase seemed like an attempt to save himself more than anything else -- asking stuff like
I town read Riki. Riki seems reasonable. I wanted to know who he was down for lynching, because I'm inclined to weigh that up to an extent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
and anticipating someone to notice that they are not, in their own opinion, being self-preservational
Which is exactly what it was. I didn't want to lynch Cue then, because objectively, he offers far less information than even my lynch did, simply due to how he played. I'm not willing to completely sacrifice all positives of a lynch just to save myself. I do think that is worth noting as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
seems self-aware in a Scummy way to me, not a Town way.
Can you make the distiction then? I mean, anything really, other than these vague passing statements you keep dropping that don't really mean anything but you keep using against me to improve your argument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
Also the question raised by Achro still stands -- how does it make any gamesolving sense to ignore cue as a possible Lynch?
Because he offered less information? Because most people I town read were against his lynch, and given that the chance I may be looking at his play at a bad angle is fairly high, I didn't think he was the best lynch for that Day, in comparison to, say, you, or MSU. Bomb offered more as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
I can see it making sense self-preservationally,
And why is that Slendy? Cue was leading the wagon for a while, self-preservation-wise it made sense to jump on that, not stay off it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
since I was more 'acceptable' as a Mislynch due to people not having explicitly stated why they didn't want to Lynch me anymore, meaning Voting for cue could've seemed to risky for Ratchet.
This doesn't really justify staying off cue making sense for preservation purposes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
Banks was of the opinion that the string of posts by Ratchet around 630ish (can be found in the quotes above) was Town-tell-y. I very much disagree; it's clearly Ratchet's Modus Operandi, not a Towntell, and the content of said posts still seems like plausibly "posting for the sake of posting".
See, here's the thing. Not only is Day 1 not a great read on my MO, at all, so clearly doesn't and shouldn't come into it, what Banks did for reading me town can be applied to you reading me scum. If it doesn't imply alignment, it doesn't imply alignment. The logic "it could be used by him as either faction, so it doesn't make him town, but it could possibly be scummy, so he's scum" is inherently flawed, Slendy.
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Old 06-17-2015, 02:04 PM   #1197
RatchetOPB
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
Btw, Ratchet, why Achro over me?
Achro flips scum - you are very likely to be scum (imo).
Achro flips town - my hypothesis is debunked entirely.

You flip scum - Achro more likely to be scum, but not as heavy as you would be on the flipside.
You flip Town - My hypothesis is damaged, but not entirely debunked.
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Old 06-17-2015, 02:05 PM   #1198
Slendy
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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Originally Posted by fontisian View Post
Actually, this could have gotten Cue killed.
Upon consideration, it might be most prudent to adopt this as the interpretation of the Cue-kill (unless some REALLY obvious peek shows up on a review). It's possible Mafia thought Cue was playing like the Cop and Hit him despite being uncertain who the Peek actually was.

Since the above interpretation is possible, we shouldn't give too much weight to any possible SHC.
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Old 06-17-2015, 02:06 PM   #1199
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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Originally Posted by Slendy View Post
Well, you DID have us three as your Scum-reads, and there's three Scum in this game, so what I was trying to tell you is that regardless of which of me/Achro is SHC, you're very likely to be missing ATLEAST two Scum and should be looking elsewhere too. Assuming you're Town.
No, I could be missing one or two.Maybe all 3, but that's not something I'm willing to entertain right now honestly. Now you are treating your assumptions as fact.
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Also please pretty please when you respond to my big post just now DON'T QUOTE THE ENTIRETY the Thread becomes unreadable otherwise. :P
Sorry, I'm thorough.
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Old 06-17-2015, 02:08 PM   #1200
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

I find Slendy's thought of "hey, maybe Cue cleared me!" to be pretty on the nose for a scum doing it. It's like that one gif of the old guy going "hello, fellow teenagers" except it'd be "hello, fellow town members." Seems to be really weird play from a scum to be that opportunistic.
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