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Old 06-17-2015, 11:20 AM   #1151
Slendy
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Like, if Scum joined the Wagon on you, why would two of them do it (since Scum tend to be afraid of that making them appear in a bad light) when they could've easily kept all the town-cred they had up until that point by playing it safer? If there was Scum on your wagon, probably only one, and probably MSU rather than Achro who is wow such Town.

Also there are many plausible teams that weren't able to be online in the first place during the EoD1-shenanigans.
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Old 06-17-2015, 11:21 AM   #1152
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Mind you, Slendy, about my point yesterday - clean doesn't always mean it's a good wagon. I stick by that, especially with off shoot votes.
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Old 06-17-2015, 11:25 AM   #1153
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Not denying that, Achro.
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Old 06-17-2015, 11:27 AM   #1154
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Ratchet, a question for you: what would you say has been the content you have independently generated and contributed to this game so far? No need to multiquote everything, I just want to hear what you remember you have provided us of your train of thought.
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Old 06-17-2015, 11:36 AM   #1155
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Hey Banks. Hey, did you think Cue was the seer? Is that why you hardcore defended him yesterDay and shot him last Night?
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Old 06-17-2015, 11:39 AM   #1156
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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Hey Banks. Hey, did you think Cue was the seer? Is that why you hardcore defended him yesterDay and shot him last Night?
"Hey font, did you think Cue was the seer? Is that why you hardcore attacked him yesterDay and shot him last Night?"

<_<
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Old 06-17-2015, 11:46 AM   #1157
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Shush. I'm letting you have your fight with Ratchet. I'm having my fight with Banks.
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Old 06-17-2015, 11:46 AM   #1158
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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Originally Posted by MSU View Post
Good morning!

Well....there goes the Cue switching back and forth discussion we were going to have.

Happy now Fonti?

I will miss his Jem videos.
Pretty happy, yeah.

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Originally Posted by road View Post
I find this villagery. The way he questions Fontis vote for being superficial and at the same time therefore questioning fontis alignment admitting that the reads is thin and not based of all the posts himself. In my view tis is villagery. "i know this could make me look bad, but im still going to post it, as this is my thoughts atm". I think a wolf would be more concerned.
The word you're looking for is "scummy."

Slendy is probably not Seer Hunt clear, because Cue was clearly ready to kill him. I mostly don't like the way he's claiming he is. Achro may be seer hunt clear, because of the vote give away, but Cue also made a point of testing Achro's alignment so ehhh. I can see it.

Smartbomb, I apologize for not ensuring the lynch would go on Ratchet yesterday. I should have voted to make sure no shenanigans occurred. (You also should have voted on Cue with me.)
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Old 06-17-2015, 11:50 AM   #1159
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

If Cue was legitimately ready to kill me, obviously that would imply Achro instead of me then. Haven't gone through him yet.

Bomb did 'crack' a bit towards the very last minutes, I also contemplated possibly switching to him tbqh.
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Old 06-17-2015, 11:56 AM   #1160
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Ok, I'm here. Sorry I couldn't be around for end-of-day. That won't be the case for day 2 or 3, but probably will for day 4 again, in the rather unlikely event that I'm still alive at that point.

I'm caught up to Ratchet's entrance this morning and see a few questions for me. Once I'm caught up, I'll answer them, give my thoughts on cue as the choice for the nightkill, and then I more or less plan on doing a hard reset for most players from the time I left last night and re-evaluating everyone.
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Old 06-17-2015, 12:00 PM   #1161
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Font I find it strange you would 'let me argue with Ratchet' as you put it. We are one whole, segmenting fights between each other is no good. Only by mass collaboration can we succeed. Or something hippy like that.
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Old 06-17-2015, 12:01 PM   #1162
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Exclamation Vote Count

Votes from post 1122 to post 1161
Night in 31:59:58

---
VotesLynchVoters
1 Achromatic RatchetOPB (2)
1 RatchetOPB Slendy (10)
8 not voting Achromatic (5), bhuber2010 (0), dorian78 (1), fontisian (3), MSU (5), Riki (0), road (11), TehBankertin (0)
1 Error DocEspana (2)
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Old 06-17-2015, 12:03 PM   #1163
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Dividing fights between the playerbase definitely IS good, just need to have enough co-operation to make sure the Lynch doesn't become totally un-co-operable.

We do want the most words in the Thread on SCUMreads, not Townreads unless they are on the gallows, after all.

Hiveminding only works when Banks' ideal 10 clear Townies vs 3 outed Scum is happening.
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Old 06-17-2015, 12:04 PM   #1164
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Having said that entrances like font's after the Night Kill are somewhat pingy IMO but could be a playingstyle thing.
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Old 06-17-2015, 12:05 PM   #1165
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

I wasn't suggesting a hivemind, merely input.

Also I am afraid I am best at trying to town clear people and then seeing whose left over for the scum. I've never been particularly gifted at going "hah, scum!" until there's blood in the water.
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Old 06-17-2015, 12:06 PM   #1166
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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Originally Posted by Achromatic View Post
Font I find it strange you would 'let me argue with Ratchet' as you put it. We are one whole, segmenting fights between each other is no good. Only by mass collaboration can we succeed. Or something hippy like that.
I'll move to consolidate one way or another before the deadline, but poking around now isn't a bad thing.
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Old 06-17-2015, 12:06 PM   #1167
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

@Fonti> Dont get what you mean with "scummy" in regards to the content of my post.

@Achro >

If you have time would you look at #1125 last four lines.
Also I hope you will continue discussing with Ratchet. Im one big questionmark on Ratchet an think this interaction can be fruitful in shaping a read.
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Old 06-17-2015, 12:11 PM   #1168
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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I have been told often enough that my town reading people isn't proper play. That it doesn't make sense. That it's wrong. I was told this in the first game on this site, in fact. As...I proceeded to correctly town read several people. I don't use the standard book of mafia play, and I understand that when people question me about it, but I also know I am very keen and am often correct. You call it a fallacy, I call it good instinct. Although broader point here, I think everyone uses some fallacies at some point just due to personal experience. Or maybe I am 'bad.'
I don't agree here, I think town tend to make more of an effort to not use fallacies as they usually don't need to do so, considering that the intent behind should be genuine. But I'm content to leave this point here, as this debate isn't looking like it's to go anywhere.
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Between you and I it never occurred to me that Slendy wouldn't make it back before deadline when I pushed for him. People kept saying this yesterday and I just voted him because he hadn't shown me anything when I isolated him.
This is very easy to say though. Granted, you haven't really got a way to disprove it, so there's that to consider.
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By the way, you are calling me a very poor scum player with this logic. "In a game where scum constitutes less than 25%, let's bus day one when someone is afk that makes sense!" I mean... okay sure no one knows my scum play and stuff, but god that's just such a poor play if true. I'm insulted.
I'm sorry you took it that way, because that isn't what I was implicating. I've seen scum play extremely safe and be too afraid to bus their scum mates. I've seen bus happy scum throw any member of their team out there to help themselves. I don't see bussing Day 1 as poor scum play. Mathematically, it doesn't change the fact that you still need to force 4 mislynches either way, and with no forms of night protection in this game, having to make an extra kill isn't particularly a drawback.
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Also good for you to notice that I thought Slendy appeared much more town when he returned. I couldn't have made it much clearer, I feel.
I don't see how you got that from his posts though. I could just be biased here, but I'm not seeing town intent in his vote. I'm seeing "save me".
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To hell with this. Mafia to me is just as much as how you say things as it is about what you say. I mean we can have a debate for hours if you like over this point because I absolutely 100% disagree. Mafia is about finding the nuances of what people say, and I often find that nakedly asking "why are you voting for me?" is very scummy.
Then we disagree again. I don't disagree that phrasing is important, but I place what is being said way above how it is being said.
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The way you said it struck a nerve. The way you like to countervote is also striking a nerve, I just don't know if it's a scummy one. This is a bold move and a bold vote, that's in your favor because I tend to assume scum are cowardly creatures.
See, my issue here is that there is nothing for me to defend with, other than saying that there is nothing for me to defend with. It comes across to me as a case where it looks like there is solid reasoning provided, but ultimately there is little substance in the fabric of the argument. I mean, at best, it's subjective.
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Manipulative in that I was trying to push your wagon, sure. I mean... that's what people do, regardless of allignment.
I like to make a distinction between persuasive and manipulative. Manipulative I tend to put under nefarious intent, whereas persuasive is a fundamental part of the game for me.
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Also your reasoning for Slendy was all over the place. "I think he is scum" "he could give information" it was very weird and warped as I read it. You kept bouncing all over the place.
Now, I can see how you can to this conclusion. I'll be frank - my approach for Day 1 was to be quite relaxed. I've gotten into that habit after being killed off earlyish often, especially when I first started playing Mafia. I like to grow into the game, to be that guy at LyLo who organises what is on the table and comes up with the best possible lynch that can be made. I'm methodical in that sense.

As for the actual point at hand, it wasn't so much that I was bouncing than it was I was adding things to my reasoning. I ideally would have compiled this all in one post, but I was quite rushed and I didn't have much time, so I was just writing the first point in my head, sending it, and then getting onto the next one.

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True, I am a bit of a bastard I can confess to that. You treat mafia as a debate, eh? Hm, gives me some information to your psyche. I can see how that lines up with how you played yesterday. I guess it isn't alignment determining though but I'll say we don't play very similarly then. I look for passion and that... town spark that's hard to describe. I am starting to gather that I could play fifty games with you and may never see it.
I can accept that, fair enough.
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This is just going to be a difference of mafia philosophy. I could link you to dozens of games where such murkiness either led to scum directly or caught scum out. For example, if you are town I would suspect that at least some scum could be found on one of the off shoot wagons because scum have this bad habit of not liking to muck it up in these things if they are town v town.
Again, fair enough. I don't deny the possibility at all, I just see these things differently, clearly.
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Good read though, very mechanical though but maybe that's just your style. I didn't respond to your defense because I didn't like the nature of it. You're an interesting player, well done.
Thank you, appreciated.
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Ratchet: it would seem that one of me/Achro is the likely SHC.
Can you just explain what that term actually means? I've been meaning to ask.
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With Bomb and cue having already flipped Town, that makes the wagon on you VERY clean actually. (Talking about the point when the wagon reached a critical mass -- not EoD when cue had unvoted due to Bomb seeming weird).
I don't agree. We know 2 town were on my wagon at some point or another. I however, am certain that at the very least on scum is on my wagon, it doesn't make sense to me otherwise.
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Why doesn't MSU's Vote on you interest you? If there's Scum-influence on your wagon, shouldn't that CLEARLY be the most suspect Vote on you?
When did I say anything about me not being interested in MSU's vote? I clearly put him in my scum reads, and cited his behaviour, alright, so I didn't explicitly mention the vote but I think it's pretty clear I do suspect MSU. As for your second question, no, absolutely not, I don't agree that he should clearly be the most suspect vote. If we are looking purely for opportunistic scum, then maybe you have a point, but I, as I've shown, have interpreted this differently.
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Okay got X-posted... Umm, no, Ratchet, the Scumteam does NOT out themselves by banding together to Vote for you to save their afk-member when all the other options according to you are Town.
That's just it. They're not outing themselves. I was quite a simple wagon to push because I wasn't at the forefront of discussion and people who eventually voted for me had already expressed some degree of suspicion against me. Considering the chaos that ensued, it could easily be deflected away and dismissed as a panic vote justified through your comeback rather than the actual degree of suspicious behaviour shown by me.

Also, can you elaborate on the bold please?
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If you're Town please take the post above by me into consideration --chances are your Wagon was VERY clean, and Achro is absolutely right about SCUM being more cautious at end-of-Phase CFD-situations.
I take every post into consideration, but I do not agree with you here. I also don't like "chances are" - I think that's it quite manipulative phrasing. Chances are any wagon is mostly clean if we're going by that logic, because town have a greater than 3:1 ratio to scum.
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Like, if Scum joined the Wagon on you, why would two of them do it (since Scum tend to be afraid of that making them appear in a bad light) when they could've easily kept all the town-cred they had up until that point by playing it safer? If there was Scum on your wagon, probably only one, and probably MSU rather than Achro who is wow such Town.
Textbook WIFOM.
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Also there are many plausible teams that weren't able to be online in the first place during the EoD1-shenanigans.
Now this is just completely deflecting away from my points. I don't like this sentence at all.
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Ratchet, a question for you: what would you say has been the content you have independently generated and contributed to this game so far? No need to multiquote everything, I just want to hear what you remember you have provided us of your train of thought.
I helped with getting the game started, questioning your usage of logic for one. I helped get information from Doc, I've attempted to call out posts I do not agree with and offer reasons why, I've offered reads throughout the day to let people know my view on people and I've questioned people, like MSU, to get a better read on them for myself and the rest of the Town.
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Old 06-17-2015, 12:12 PM   #1169
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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@Fonti> Dont get what you mean with "scummy" in regards to the content of my post.
Attacking someone for making a weak read while admitting to making a weak read, as in bhuber's case, is scummy.
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Old 06-17-2015, 12:16 PM   #1170
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

i skimmed most of the stuff that's been posted today

i thought the shc if there was one was fonti but i don't really remember a single post that felt strongly like a peek to me

i'll be back in like 30 min
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Old 06-17-2015, 12:31 PM   #1171
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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If you mean Dorian, his OP pinged me as the type of post where there's many words to hide the fact that gamesolving-content is lacking, so I wanted to see (and want to see now) whether his narrative evolved into a 'coasting' one or whether there were sparks of green light as the Phase progressed. I remember seeing neutral posts and one that gave me the Town-vibes, but I'm sure there's more from him now.
There is more from me now, and I hope you find time to read it. That said, of course you didn't see gamesolving-content in my OP. It's an OP. It was meant to be an introduction to how I think and my personality. I have freely admitted that I have neither the tools nor the experience to gamesolve early in the game. It's never done where I play, and especially in a setup like this where there's not likely to be any claims at any point on day 1, I very much wasn't going to even begin trying until there were actual votes on the table.

Not everyone approaches the game like it seems to be done here, and not seeing that immediately is far more indicative of personal background than affiliation.
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Old 06-17-2015, 12:35 PM   #1172
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Another quickie, Ratchet: why didn't you want to consider Voting Doc at the end of the Phase?
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Old 06-17-2015, 12:37 PM   #1173
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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I just ISO of Dorian and couldn't find his scum reads (I didn't do it thoroughly enough i guess).

But yeah, I agree - why not mention the guy who pointing the gun at you?
I rarely get strong scumreads on day 1, and sometimes not even on day 2. I usually do much better with townreads, though this game is messing with my head, and it's magnitudes more difficult without roleclaims happening all over the place. By the end of the day, I had a very slight scumread on Doc, partly for having way more scumreads than I'm used to town players having at that point. I had been evaluating cue all day back and forth, even if it didn't quite land in scum territory by the time I left. Obviously my biggest scumread was on SmartBomb.

I didn't feel like road was pointing a gun at me. He asked me about my townreads, I gave him my townreads. road was not a particularly strong townread for me at the time.
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Old 06-17-2015, 12:38 PM   #1174
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

SHC=Seer Hunt Clear. Mafia probably hit Cue cause they thought he was the Cop. That means Mafia saw a fake N0-townpeek from Cue, and believed it, meaning the person cue allegedly had as their N0-peek is Town.

Without having combed all of cue's posts it would appear that the SHC-person is either Achro (due to cue buddying him so heavily, and apparently repeatedly saying the believed them to be Town) or me (due to weirdly calling me the Cop for the first half of the Phase and not really saying anything other than I must be Town for it), so regardless of which way it goes that makes your wagon very clean-looking.
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Old 06-17-2015, 12:41 PM   #1175
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

And if you believe that the whole Scumteam Voted you, as you implied in the post I responded to, that would make all the other wagons (except for the one on me) Town-wagons. Meaning Scum wasn't in any need to 1) bus me like that in the first place, nor 2) create a new wagon out of thin air when all the existing alternatives must've been Town.
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