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Old 06-16-2015, 01:46 PM   #701
fontisian
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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Originally Posted by cue5c View Post
The thing is, convincing one person I'm town in exchange for the power I have isn't worth it. But I will say this: At least one person every game who I think is scum, I will town read them to see how they react to me. He is not a town read to me. His silence is baffling considering he said he needs to be a part of things in order to get reads. He's entirely absent for the most part. I understand backing off if he was the center of discussion and therefore got reads that way, but he's not. He's just accepting being read as town. Surviving to the end means nothing if you don't have any idea of who scum is, and according to him and his self-meta, he's not doing anything to figure that out.

Plus I'm pretty suspicious of anyone who reads me town Day 1. I'm at a disadvantage because others have meta to go off of. I'm not looking at banks previous games and as far as I'm concerned, people calling him town could be teammates going with a general consensus, or people trying to get in his good favor (if he's town). I'm not gonna play that game. If it takes my flip for people to see me as town, that's fine. And if it looks like that's the case, I'll reveal my thoughts. Until then, I'm going to continue down this same path. And I really don't feel like convincing you of anything as you've already made your mind up about me and I have you as a town read and don't like begging. It's more fun to see who follows you since mafia knows I'm not one of them, anyway.
From a theory standpoint, I disagree. I like working with my townreads to solve the game as fast as possible and, unless there's a clear purpose, find withholding information to be anti-town. I also think town are responsible for projecting town, which narrows down the pool of possible scum. I'm asking you, as one of your town reads, to give me something to help me reassess you.

The explanation of your Achromatic read was a really good start, though I disagree with the idea that he's done nothing.
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Old 06-16-2015, 01:51 PM   #702
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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My apologies if I missed something on this page but you voted for me for pressure without anything else. Like, there isn't anything to this vote except "Hey, talk!" where others have been lynched for less.

This is also why you peaked my scum-dar.

Same questions to you now that banksy put to me but doubled and going both ways.

Sinking mafia ship - you have to kill 2 and save 2. Obvi but pointing it out - the two you are killing are the people you think are mafia (wolves) and the people you are saving are people you think are town (villagers).

(also, about to head into a block of meetings so I will be back to read the rest of the what occurred during my rest period - something has to pay the bills to support my mafia habit)
i'd probably kill like cue/slendy

maybe cue dorian

save myself/bhuber ez
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Old 06-16-2015, 01:52 PM   #703
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

if i'm not allowed to save myself then like bhuber/banks or bhuber/fonti probably
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Old 06-16-2015, 01:54 PM   #704
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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I am so confused by this - what do people mean by this?

(serious question - i thought people were being funny but I honestly have no idea what this means)
if i'm the seer then bhuber is a villager

if i'm not the seer then it means nothing
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Old 06-16-2015, 01:56 PM   #705
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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But as I have read through the thread, my initial accuser, bhuber comes in, reads me, leaves, hasn't posted since, no one mentions it.

I am gonna mention it - bhuber - I would like your take on others, specifically though - Road, Banksy, and Smartbomb.
what happened to your townread on him?
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Old 06-16-2015, 01:59 PM   #706
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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From a theory standpoint, I disagree. I like working with my townreads to solve the game as fast as possible and, unless there's a clear purpose, find withholding information to be anti-town. I also think town are responsible for projecting town, which narrows down the pool of possible scum. I'm asking you, as one of your town reads, to give me something to help me reassess you.

The explanation of your Achromatic read was a really good start, though I disagree with the idea that he's done nothing.
I didn't say he's done nothing. I said he hasn't for the most part. It's like the second I started questioning him on his reads and thoughts on players, he disappeared only to come back and complain he was being read as town.

And you disagreeing with me from a theoretical standpoint is exactly why we're always going to clash. I don't think there's any one right way, while you clearly think your way is the most efficient. I've won quite a few games reversing my reads and observing what happens, and because of that and how it can sound false, it paints a target on my back. I don't see this as a bad thing, I see this as a necessity. The only reason I'm explaining this right now is that it's late enough in the game to look like WIFOM. I love WIFOM.

Withholding information makes people feel like they can shade me. I like that and need it to see who is being genuine in their suspicion, like I suspect you are, and those that are potentially following up on what they see as an acceptable target, like I suspect Doc might. If you truly consider everything I did before you questioned me to be pointless fluff, then I don't think you're ever going to be that comfortable with me. Of course, this is Day 1 play. We'll see if I make it to Day 2. Everything I've done is with purpose, whether you see it or not.

(I wonder if anyone looked up the lyrics to the song I put for my bio. I thought it was very revealing of my play, especially if you consider me to be each of the characters at once.)
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:00 PM   #707
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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i'd probably kill like cue/slendy

maybe cue dorian

save myself/bhuber ez
I think Dorian could be scum, but if he is I don't think he's served his purpose yet.
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:13 PM   #708
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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Originally Posted by TehBankertin View Post
I'd like to get your take on who you think would be the least valuable lynch today lets say top 2.
I've been thinking about this a lot, because most people would give quite a bit of info.

I'd say top 2 would be:

Slendy - Could be scum, but if so he's given next to nothing and will actively make scum hunting harder going forward.

Dorian - Too analytical and reserved, while also subtly implicating things. Will give much more on future days and should be saved for then.
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:13 PM   #709
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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Originally Posted by cue5c View Post
I didn't say he's done nothing. I said he hasn't for the most part. It's like the second I started questioning him on his reads and thoughts on players, he disappeared only to come back and complain he was being read as town.

And you disagreeing with me from a theoretical standpoint is exactly why we're always going to clash. I don't think there's any one right way, while you clearly think your way is the most efficient. I've won quite a few games reversing my reads and observing what happens, and because of that and how it can sound false, it paints a target on my back. I don't see this as a bad thing, I see this as a necessity. The only reason I'm explaining this right now is that it's late enough in the game to look like WIFOM. I love WIFOM.

Withholding information makes people feel like they can shade me. I like that and need it to see who is being genuine in their suspicion, like I suspect you are, and those that are potentially following up on what they see as an acceptable target, like I suspect Doc might. If you truly consider everything I did before you questioned me to be pointless fluff, then I don't think you're ever going to be that comfortable with me. Of course, this is Day 1 play. We'll see if I make it to Day 2. Everything I've done is with purpose, whether you see it or not.

(I wonder if anyone looked up the lyrics to the song I put for my bio. I thought it was very revealing of my play, especially if you consider me to be each of the characters at once.)
The problem with that playstyle is that I can't just take your word for it. Say you start pushing someone, and give reasoning, and then later change your mind, and explain why. I've got no problem with that, and would probably townread you for it (depending on the situation). Instead we have something like this, where I like what you're saying about Achro, but I can't tell if it's genuine or just a response to me calling you two not knowingly aligned.
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:24 PM   #710
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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Originally Posted by cue5c View Post
The thing is, convincing one person I'm town in exchange for the power I have isn't worth it. But I will say this: At least one person every game who I think is scum, I will town read them to see how they react to me. He is not a town read to me. His silence is baffling considering he said he needs to be a part of things in order to get reads. He's entirely absent for the most part. I understand backing off if he was the center of discussion and therefore got reads that way, but he's not. He's just accepting being read as town. Surviving to the end means nothing if you don't have any idea of who scum is, and according to him and his self-meta, he's not doing anything to figure that out.

Plus I'm pretty suspicious of anyone who reads me town Day 1. I'm at a disadvantage because others have meta to go off of. I'm not looking at banks previous games and as far as I'm concerned, people calling him town could be teammates going with a general consensus, or people trying to get in his good favor (if he's town). I'm not gonna play that game. If it takes my flip for people to see me as town, that's fine. And if it looks like that's the case, I'll reveal my thoughts. Until then, I'm going to continue down this same path. And I really don't feel like convincing you of anything as you've already made your mind up about me and I have you as a town read and don't like begging. It's more fun to see who follows you since mafia knows I'm not one of them, anyway.
i'm having difficulty wrapping my head around whether this is actually a thing that you think

or if like this is a thing that anybody could actually think

like it seems so reactionary when mafia can realistically do whatever they want

although i kind of like the part about achro except iirc he didn't really start posting much yesterday until around this time so his absence hasn't really weirded me out that much yet
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:25 PM   #711
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

i take back what i said earlier about msu being the spruce of this game

cue is the spruce of this game
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:26 PM   #712
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

spruce why
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:26 PM   #713
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Wow. I just realized that the vote tallies are listed with the voters in alphabetical order instead of posting order. I guess I've been spoiled by our tally program that lists voters in posting order.

Warning: wall of text incoming.

I've been wrestling with where to put my vote for a while now. MSU's far and away the leader at the moment. Discounting the bhuber votes (cause OMGUS and...Swifting? aren't really worth acknowledging in my opinion), cue is the only other person with more than one vote at the moment.

If I voted for cue now, it would be for the same reasons I gave last night: potential information, concern I won't ever be able to read him, and a general disconnect on playstyles. None of those are terribly great reasons. I think cue actually said very early on about me that he finds such disconnects usually to be indicative of town. On my forum, I'd tend to agree. Here, I don't know if I agree as strongly, but it's certainly possible.

Riki was the other potential vote I mentioned last night. I hate, hate, hate the MSU vote. It was clearly for pressure at time when pressure wasn't needed. I felt tons of pressure with the 2 early votes I got, I'm sure MSU was already feeling the pressure with the 2 votes he already had. But everything else about her is really town, and many people agree. I think I'm just going to have to chalk up the vote up to culture differences.

I don't think I'm any more or less inclined to vote for Doc now than I was a few hours ago. Though I do notice that when I interpreted his read on me as at least a slight scumread and called him out for having too many scumreads, he quickly backpedaled his read on me to a null. His defense of MSU is what's got me thinking twice. Especially if MSU is lynched and flips town, Doc definitely gets less scummy in my eyes. At this point, if MSU is mafia, I think his teammates would be more likely to bus him.

MSU - man, I don't know what to think here. It seems too easy. Several people I like are voting for him, several of the people I'm considering voting for aren't voting for him. For much of the day he was the low-hanging fruit because of his absence. It's just too neat. The case against him basically boils down to being absent and posting "weak reads." If, like he says, he comes from a culture like mine that's way, way more relaxed about day 1's and reads, it's hard for me to fault him for that. The OMGUS vote...I'm not sold on the explanation, but I'm just not sure what him doing it says about him. I'm ok if he gets lynched, as he's definitely not higher than a null read for me, but my policy is, unless there's a really compelling reason, to vote for the person that I'm most suspicious of.

SmartBomb

I already started with my comments in 656. It convinced me to go back and reread his posts for the day. Aside from the already-much-discussed "I'm town" opening, it was a lot of fluff before the game got serious, which was fine.

His first real post is to put a second vote on me. That's eyebrow-raising to me (regardless of the fact that I was the one he picked), but town do it to get pressure going early too. I put my first set of reads out there and he immediately puts me near the top of his town list. I mean, it was appreciated, but in retrospect, it's a pretty big swing. Heck, road was called out by several for liking the same post of mine, and road was only forming a first opinion, not changing a previous one.

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Originally Posted by SmartBomb View Post
Yeah.

First post I had issue with is road reading Acromatic reading cue. For the same reasons that road disliked Achro I dislike road, it seems like a forced scumread that he needs in order for later in case he needs a lynch later.

The questions to cue mean nothing about the state of the game, I can think of several other questions that would've been more pertinent than asking about the question from those two posts.

I then began to realise that I don't remember any of road's probably 20-odd posts and that irritates me. Then I remembered I didn't remember any of road's posts in Game 3, either.
He pushes on road quite a bit, but claiming he doesn't remember any of road's posts before the 2 recent ones makes it a pretty ineffective push. And one that he eventually stops pushing.

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Originally Posted by SmartBomb View Post
I still don't like MSU, the reads on Achro and Doc don't actually state why they're town, bhuber's a very simple read, what happened to Riki...? Just the third vote thing that flipped him from one of your townreads to scumreads? An easy standby? Like I've heard of this and I know people believe in it but it's such a weak reason for someone who you were calling town before


MSU now that he's back and I still don't like him
He places the 4th vote on MSU, after Riki's pressure vote and MSU comes back to defend himself. I don't hate this vote quite as much as I hate Riki's vote, but 4th on a wagon isn't a whole lot better than 3rd, and he barely addresses any of MSU's actual new posts beyond picking Riki to shoot in Banks's little hypothetical.

He keeps pushing at Doc as well. As hard, if not harder, than he's pushed MSU. After rereading him, I feel like I expected his vote to be on Doc. Also, I note that 3 of the people he's pushed on/voted for today (me, MSU, Doc) have all been fairly low-hanging fruit because of our inexperience with this format.

That catches me up to post 656, which I've already gone over. MSU's drawing heat for posting non-commital reads. SmartBomb's bhuber read was designed to cast suspicion on him regardless of how MSU flips, and based on an assumption that I think is blatantly wrong. That's scummier to me than non-commital reads from someone who's been busy.

I'm not the kind of player to jump on one of the leading wagons at the end of the day just because. I'll switch if someone can convince me that MSU (or whoever else) is a scummier read. Also, I may not be around for the last hour or two of the day. If I have to leave, I'll let you all know when I'm leaving.
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:29 PM   #714
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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The problem with that playstyle is that I can't just take your word for it. Say you start pushing someone, and give reasoning, and then later change your mind, and explain why. I've got no problem with that, and would probably townread you for it (depending on the situation). Instead we have something like this, where I like what you're saying about Achro, but I can't tell if it's genuine or just a response to me calling you two not knowingly aligned.
And that's why I have a town read on you. Town will be genuinely conflicted. Mafia won't. You can't take my word for it now, but when I flip it'll become very clear. I want to live past Day 1. That's one of my goals this game. But living past Day 1 is pointless for me unless I have data that I myself can use. Again, if I'm gonna be lynched, I'll be a lot more revealing about my thoughts, but until that point I need to have something to hold on to.

I won't blame you if you do lynch me, btw. Just be prepared for a lot of framing after the fact. "Banks said it was soooo obvious he was town. I was null, but it seemed best to clear it up. Why were you so convinced he was mafia?" Things like that. That's what I'm looking for. Setup for future implications. It's why I get stuck on something like ratchet's "trying to act town, but not mafia" sets off so many red flags for me. It's just such a specific, yet open ended thing to say.

And why Riki's

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Originally Posted by Riki View Post
if he continues to only talk about the first post of the game i'll reconsider
set off those same red flags. Especially because it wasn't addressed to anyone in particular. Just like, "hey, make note I'm making note of this okay". It's weird and it speaks of someone trying to think of future responses the rest of the post. Like shutting down the questions before they begin. But Riki also just has a weird posting style to me. One that's hard for me to deal with or respond to.
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:30 PM   #715
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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i take back what i said earlier about msu being the spruce of this game

cue is the spruce of this game
Who's spruce?
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:32 PM   #716
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Okay had some time to sit down and read MSU's posts and I don't think the guy is mafia. His insights into the game come off a very genuine to me, like he's really thinking about the game when he discusses his reads. I think we should change directions before it is too late.
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:34 PM   #717
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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Okay had some time to sit down and read MSU's posts and I don't think the guy is mafia. His insights into the game come off a very genuine to me, like he's really thinking about the game when he discusses his reads. I think we should change directions before it is too late.
Hi.
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:35 PM   #718
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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Originally Posted by cue5c View Post
I've been thinking about this a lot, because most people would give quite a bit of info.

I'd say top 2 would be:

Slendy - Could be scum, but if so he's given next to nothing and will actively make scum hunting harder going forward.

Dorian - Too analytical and reserved, while also subtly implicating things. Will give much more on future days and should be saved for then.
like this thing for example

i think you're approaching the game from the angle of like, solving the game using interactions/spew etc.

and most other people are approaching it from the opposite angle (or at least some kind of mix of the two) by clearing enough townies so you're left with a small enough poe that you have enough mislynches for

like idk
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:37 PM   #719
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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like this thing for example

i think you're approaching the game from the angle of like, solving the game using interactions/spew etc.

and most other people are approaching it from the opposite angle (or at least some kind of mix of the two) by clearing enough townies so you're left with a small enough poe that you have enough mislynches for

like idk
So because I'm approaching the game from a different angle I must be scum? I don't like doing the clearing townies method. Never have. I find one or two, but it's just not my style. It doesn't feel natural and molding myself to that hasn't worked to my favor in the past.
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:38 PM   #720
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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Who's spruce?
he was a guy from game 4 who had a weird-ish posting style and approach to the game who i struggled to read and ended up reading incorrectly
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:40 PM   #721
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

i think i like an msu/dorian lynch less after the last page too
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:41 PM   #722
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

o **** i just noticed

cue

third vote get
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:42 PM   #723
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

smartbomb

i think i'm going to try this for a while
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:42 PM   #724
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Exclamation Vote Count

Votes from post 9 to post 723
Night in 5:18:38

---
VotesLynchVoters
4 MSU bhuber2010 (16), TehBankertin (161), SmartBomb (37), RatchetOPB (50)
2 cue5c fontisian (49), DocEspana (25)
2 SmartBomb dorian78 (22), Riki (117)
2 bhuber2010 MSU (32), cue5c (93)
1 dorian78 Slendy (19)
1 DocEspana Achromatic (39)
1 not voting road (47)
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Old 06-16-2015, 02:42 PM   #725
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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he was a guy from game 4 who had a weird-ish posting style and approach to the game who i struggled to read and ended up reading incorrectly
So you currently have your vote on someone who reminded you of a player you know you read wrong? You don't see anything weird about this?
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