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Old 06-16-2015, 04:07 AM   #626
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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Originally Posted by TehBankertin View Post
Your reads are soft as ***. There are people actively trying to kill the village and you're being soft as hell. I need to read your filter but I'm unimpressed. Your reads list looks like a laundry lists of maybe and idk and too soon to tell.
I agree on this. Especially considering how he seperated them into 2 posts, I thought we'd have a comprehensive list. We had about 3 in each post, with a short paragraph (that really gave very little) for each one. I'm scum reading him for that (need to see his later reactions).
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Old 06-16-2015, 04:09 AM   #627
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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But I kill Riki. I didn't like his vote, and I didn't like his explanation he just gave above for it. What are you pressuring me for? we have 20+ hours.
And I think this is scummy as well. "Why me?" - why not should be the question. Has he got any reason not to pressure you?
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Old 06-16-2015, 04:12 AM   #628
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

I'm around Ratchet in case you're a bit lonely on your reread but very busy

Upset that DocEspanda has disappeared again, there's only so many free passes I can give on a person who doesn't contribute until I start looking at them seriously as a scum man
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Old 06-16-2015, 04:21 AM   #629
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Posted from a freakin mac

Votes from post 9 to post 628
Night in 15:39:24

---
VotesLynchVoters
4 MSU bhuber2010 (16), Riki (101), SmartBomb (34), TehBankertin (161)
2 DocEspana Achromatic (38), RatchetOPB (42)
2 TehBankertin cue5c (69), DocEspana (13)
1 cue5c fontisian (44)
1 dorian78 Slendy (19)
1 Riki MSU (15)
2 not voting dorian78 (16), road (47)
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Old 06-16-2015, 04:23 AM   #630
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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Originally Posted by SmartBomb View Post
I'm around Ratchet in case you're a bit lonely on your reread but very busy

Upset that DocEspanda has disappeared again, there's only so many free passes I can give on a person who doesn't contribute until I start looking at them seriously as a scum man
Good, I thought I was abandoned.

What do you think of Riki? After those reads, I'm putting him down as lean town because I like the effort put into them, it feels genuine and informative.
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Old 06-16-2015, 04:38 AM   #631
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

I really do like Riki as he is striving to interact with pretty much everyone in thread and trying to focus on a nonscummy perspective when interacting with people. Like he's different to me in that he has no self-consciousness hampering him and that's a very townie thing in general. He's really insightful too.

I love his 12 reads even if I don't agree with some of them them and the fact that he listed them before going off is also great. He's working really hard despite his comments to the contrary and he's been on point with catching small things (see MSU no lynch Day 1 meta) and he's been interacting with I think everyone so far? Except for bhuber haha

Like, he's been both right and strong the entire game and I really like that, generally I don't like people who are right but his... tone, while doing so, I guess, doesn't read scum to me. I think he's the towniest guy in the game so far, might even go over Banks.
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Old 06-16-2015, 04:39 AM   #632
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Achromatic - Lean Town (Weak) - I liked his responses to me earlier, and I find his posts are mostly on-point. It's weak because a) - He's clearly a great player, so it wouldn't be difficult for him to convey this as scum, and b) - because I'm only willing to take logic and agreeable points so far in this game.

bhuber2010 - Null - I haven't seen enough of him to get any sort of solid read on him. From the few posts he did have, I was getting town vibes from them, but it's just not enough.

cue5c - Lean Scum - I'm just not seeing where he looks like town, to me. I can see why he will be doing what he is doing, as I mentioned earlier, but his tone is coming across as scummy, to me, and I'm not agreeing with the logic that he's too bold to be scum. I also think he's reaching very far out on his point against me, so it's possible I'm a little biased here.

DocEspana - Lean Scum - Only for a seemingly smaller reason than others, but I really don't like his reason with pulling up the bios. It's very weak to me, and looks more like trying to justify doing so rather than doing so to meet and ends.

dorian78 - Lean Town - Simply because I find myself agreeing with him a lot, as evidenced by the fact I do not have many, if any, replies to him.

fontisian - Lean Town - As above, I think I'm somehow mixing these two up as well.

MSU - Lean Scum - My strongest scum read at the moment. I've provided the reasons, but his reads are really weak and vague, which in my experience equals scum reads, and his reaction to pressure was quite poor in my opinion.

RatchetOPB - Town - Obvious Town Ratchet is obvious.

Riki - Lean Town - I like his questioning, and his arguments make sense even if I don't agree with them. I especially like his reads list, as it genuinely looks like effort has been put into them.

road - Null - I like most of his posts, but I'm getting vibes that tell me I shouldn't be. Really weak read here I know, but I can't read road right now, hoping that changes later on as there has been plenty of content from him (similar to his sentiments for me actually).

Slendy - Null - I haven't seen much of him lately, but I've given my thoughts on his beginning. It does look a bit weak looking back, although I think it is noteworthy that he was inconsistent with his logic initially.

SmartBomb - Lean Town - I've completely changed my mind on SmartBomb. I thought his start was quite scummy largely, but since then I like his posts and his reasoning. Also, he's going to keep me company for a bit.

TehBankertin - Lean Town, strongest town read. I understand that scum can be very active and it works as a smokescreen, but I can't really hold a possibility that can apply to anyone active against him fairly. I like his questioning, his confidence and his reads, even if we align up rather poorly.
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Old 06-16-2015, 04:40 AM   #633
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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Originally Posted by SmartBomb View Post
I really do like Riki as he is striving to interact with pretty much everyone in thread and trying to focus on a nonscummy perspective when interacting with people. Like he's different to me in that he has no self-consciousness hampering him and that's a very townie thing in general. He's really insightful too.

I love his 12 reads even if I don't agree with some of them them and the fact that he listed them before going off is also great. He's working really hard despite his comments to the contrary and he's been on point with catching small things (see MSU no lynch Day 1 meta) and he's been interacting with I think everyone so far? Except for bhuber haha

Like, he's been both right and strong the entire game and I really like that, generally I don't like people who are right but his... tone, while doing so, I guess, doesn't read scum to me. I think he's the towniest guy in the game so far, might even go over Banks.
Largely agreed. I have him down as my second strongest town read, he's proactive and clearly scum hunting to me.
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Old 06-16-2015, 04:41 AM   #634
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Also, I'll be taking my vote off Doc soon, I think he's going to struggle to get up to date and I understand that can be difficult, so I can't hold that against him. Definitely want to see more from him though.
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Old 06-16-2015, 04:58 AM   #635
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

bhuber's only few posts were to point at MSU and give quickreads.

I have a problem with this, it seems like the obvious route that we would probably end on (considering literally no-one is reading MSU as town) and therefore an obvious bus. Obviously MSU hasn't flipped scum yet and on Day 1 I don't like to believe any flip is certain but regardless of MSU's flip bhuber is actually looking fairly scummy to me. I was giving him a pass for being so confident but it's... eh. Remove tone from bhuber and he's done the same thing MSU did, obviously tone is a big factor though.

I feel like this is like my dorian push earlier because it seems that bhuber has potential and in like 12 hours when he starts posting again I'll start to like him better, but bhuber in hindsight is starting to get on my mind.

I'm gonna ISO road's game 3 posts and then the posts here now, see if I don't get a better feel for him now.
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Old 06-16-2015, 05:28 AM   #636
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

okay guys. The ER finally really calmed down. So lets discuss what I normally do.

I normally view day 1 as a crap shoot. In this situation you all are more well equipped than I am to make a smart move. Its been years since I played a game with a day 1 lynch (we usually do some sort of vote for an elected extra power or just start with the night shift) so Im not coming on strong partially for that reason. Dont want to take a strong stance (and I often take strong stances) on people's actions with so little concrete data. Having a dead villager/wolf tonight will let me have some idea of who was right and wrong.

Now onto what I do, and what I've made a habit out of. I make a splash. I pick some random issue and sink my teeth into it and just completely and utterly make a stubborn fool out of myself hoping to draw attention. Draw everyone's attention. Becuase if you're going to lynch me over some silliness like being stubborn over the utility of claiming villager... you are possibly trying to lynch low hanging fruit. You're looking for the weak villager who is annoying people and hoping to form a bandwagon because "people dont like him, it will be easy."

It even got mentioned in my bio.

So now that Ive read everything I began making a little list of everyone who has said stuff that rubbed me the wrong way. Its lots of little silly things but hopefully over the course of the game it will show people who keep making decisions that the villagers would regret making. Its.... of less utility ina 13 person game than a long 40 person game... but its worked early in games before. So i'm trying it.

And I'm taking my vote off of the banker, just give me a tiny bit of time to figure out who im putting it onto. I'll comment on random stuff along the way as I remember them and review my notes. Not everything I notice is worth bringing up. a lot of it is really petty "this feels disingenuous" stuff and I dont want to get everyone nervous because everyone has 1 or 2 of these posts. Im not actually suspicious of everyone, but some have 7/8/9 of them.
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Old 06-16-2015, 05:59 AM   #637
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

I can't see road's Day 1 posts because the sheer volume of them pushed them off the search engine, but he seems a lot more definite and clear from what I can see. Hey, maybe it's a Day 1 thing, trying to be definite on Day 1 is ridiculous, but idk, and this catchup thing is new, despite what he said. Yeah, this isn't... the same? Does this mean he's scum or maybe he has less time this game? Or was Day 1 that radically different?

I'll acknowledge my early read of road is kind of in error and looking back I kind of regret it now. Gut was screaming, probably because I was hungry or something, but I can't see my reasoning being solid any more. Does this mean he's null again? I think yeah he is null again. OK, I'll lean town on him because of his readspost and he acknowledges he has a significant amount of nullreads where he shouldn't.

---

Oh, is the forum quiet? Let me go grab some dinner and have a look at some of the more null-type reads I have on my radar.

fontisian. I feel like there's a conclusion to be made but I don't know what it is. Before I slept I noted fontisan made the most amount of vote changes which is not really much to say considering it was an hour in the game and one of them was RVS. It's all been analysis and not much else but to be fair she seems to be a more analytical type of person and not so much "spew your reads" as Banks and Riki are. She seems to be holding back; the cue thing seems to be off; wouldn't you include that major post in your first case against cue? mmph. The tone goes town but on an active/passive level that's fairly scummy. The two cancel each other to a certain point closer to scum than town.

dorian. Everything he says is right, and he's being right in a townsided way. Content to read town for now.

cue is a guy from a completely different meta and I feel on his meta he would be read as town. Interesting enough. I think he's been townie so far but I've had experience with these people who put their cards close to their chest and I know from experience they're difficult to read. Fun fact: the person I'm thinking of is Blode, you might know him. But gutread town so far and I like him.

---

Doc, nice to see you around, hope you can share stuff
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Old 06-16-2015, 06:23 AM   #638
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

So dorian puts me in an odd position. Really really odd position. You see multiple times he has been very "friendly" towards me and I appreciate that. but its strikes me repeatedly as too friendly. On top of that his logic on various issues just seems... How do I put this. It seems like he would rather encourage other people to double down on their claims rather than really putting his neck out. It probably makes lots of people feel nice to have someone keep stroking their ego and agreeing with them, but you really cant agree with everyone all the time. He did have some minor squabbles withe people, but it was a tiny snippet of what he did all day. Im not throwing my vote down for him, but I also dont understand why everyone is finding him to have a villager-feel unless they enjoy being ego stroked.

Cue is... that dude is on a differnet world. He plays like someone with something to hide. I didnt find any of his arguments for people to have *paritcular* merit. And he took some swipes at me when I was playing loud and brash that struck me as aiming for low hanging fruit.Which is exactly what I was hoping for. Someone who has a tenous argument for being a villager who seemed to have gone after me as a "jump on the bandwagon" type deal.

Banker: hey buddy. Sorry about voting for you. Let me make this right. You seem cool. You deserve to live longer. Good god you post a lot, but I can enjoy that.

Ratchet: I honestly want to dislike you, and I'm gonna lean you wolf in my book. but its not like you are playing horribly. I just dont feel comfortable with some of your recent arguments. Especially that you dont see the merit of me looking at the bios. It was uncharted territory and I, again, dont know any of you. I am trying to see if anyone is clearly not meshing with their normal play style. I know I have an amorphous play style, but I have some tells when wolf. But really I am looking for someone who prides themself on brash play being conservative or slow logical play going balls-to-the-wall. There really isnt anyone posting much of anything about their play style. I think only 4 of us 13 even mentioned our playstyle. Anchrom was riding my ass hard about the "villager call" stuff. Harder than he had any right to do. and then he complained I sounded too personally angry (i wasnt, but its hard to tell this stuff by type) when I responded back. So since he was one of the four who had playstyle mentioned I looked and... damnit... he fully admits its how he likes to do it. Even down to accentuating he likes to find fun in the game, which backs up him getting on me about being "mean". Okay. Fine. But you then going and calling it a weak move? Come on man. Plus all of your posts are basically just going and "me too-ing" other peoples points. Every one I can see. Its adding nothing. Coming from a guy who worked or slept almost all day, thats saying a lot.

Chromie: I like your avatar. Plus you're being so incredibly honest about stuff. Cant fault you yet.

MSU: I appreciate that youre one of three people who understood what I was getting at. I think you're getting unfairly railroaded a bit here by others but Im also not going to stand in the way of it. There is a bit of self preservation at play here. Just gonna be honest. You are playing dead and true nuetral to me. you should defend yourself, son.

switch my vote over to cue
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Old 06-16-2015, 06:33 AM   #639
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

I dont know exactly why, but every time road speaks I want to lynch him.

Riki is trying very hard. Too hard? Anyone else think he is trying to hard? Idk. It just seems like they need to weigh in on every last thing. maybe its the lack of teeth. they have no teeth to their arguments. Though I do appreciate them being one of the people who did not take any shots at me. Remeber, Im not appreciating them for not endangering me. Im appreciating them because the low-hanging fruit routine is, exactly that, a routine.

Bomb: dont worry. We will chat. I appreciate you understanding that I work a ton. But we will chat.

All in all though, Im of the mindset that the first day is still a shot in the dark. You guys all 1) have more experience with day 1 lynches than I do and 2) most of you know each other a bit. I didnt do my research and read all of the games you were in. And I honestly dont think I will unless I get into end game and have to really make hard calls. so I am just reading all of your opinions, trying to get a decent grasp of how you all think (which is so hard. so many different personalities to keep straight).

I honestly think having a person dead post lynch will tell me A LOT more about all of you guys and what I should think of you guys than all of todays conversations have. Because then we can associate some element of "right" and "wrong" values to suspicions.
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Old 06-16-2015, 06:39 AM   #640
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

btw. By changing my vote I made myself the vote leader. So. Yea. Anyone want to help a brother out and be suspicious of someone with 2 votes as well?

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Old 06-16-2015, 07:04 AM   #641
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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Ratchet: I honestly want to dislike you, and I'm gonna lean you wolf in my book. but its not like you are playing horribly. I just dont feel comfortable with some of your recent arguments. Especially that you dont see the merit of me looking at the bios.
But do you see the reason behind why I think that way?
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It was uncharted territory and I, again, dont know any of you. I am trying to see if anyone is clearly not meshing with their normal play style. I know I have an amorphous play style, but I have some tells when wolf. But really I am looking for someone who prides themself on brash play being conservative or slow logical play going balls-to-the-wall. There really isnt anyone posting much of anything about their play style. I think only 4 of us 13 even mentioned our playstyle. Anchrom was riding my ass hard about the "villager call" stuff. Harder than he had any right to do. and then he complained I sounded too personally angry (i wasnt, but its hard to tell this stuff by type) when I responded back. So since he was one of the four who had playstyle mentioned I looked and... damnit... he fully admits its how he likes to do it. Even down to accentuating he likes to find fun in the game, which backs up him getting on me about being "mean". Okay. Fine. But you then going and calling it a weak move? Come on man.
It's not like I just called it a weak move and didn't attempt to justify it. I see why you are doing it, I just don't see any merit in it, personally. Even if someone does play differently, given the differences in the setup, the community and the activity, I wouldn't say that is alignment indicative (whereas it usually would be).
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Plus all of your posts are basically just going and "me too-ing" other peoples points. Every one I can see. Its adding nothing. Coming from a guy who worked or slept almost all day, thats saying a lot.
I don't agree with this assessment at all. Even if I was just agreeing or disagreeing with something, that shows my stance on things, so it's not accurate to say it "adds nothing". Additionally, when you are playing catch up multiple times like I have been, it's kind of difficult to add something entirely new (I believe I have brought up a few points not mentioned to date, like the bio thing on you) when that discussion has largely been and gone, and I'm not going to necessarily be the one instigating discussion as I usually am in this game either. I think this is quite reactionary of you here, but I can't say I blame you.

I did also say I would remove my vote on you later on, and while I don't agree with your points here, I'd say your reads as a whole are ok. So MSU.
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Old 06-16-2015, 07:07 AM   #642
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Additionally Doc, if you have an issue with my recent arguments, I would appreciate it if you were to address them, so we can have some discussion. Seems like a decent time for it as well, given the activity for now.
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Old 06-16-2015, 07:22 AM   #643
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

I just find playstyle is immutable. An angry person will always get baited into anger. A thoughtful person will always sit back and wait for others to make a misstep when things get complex. An aggressive wolf hunter will all ways get the taste for blood and revert to their usual methods. Change in format doesn't change the players personality or comfort zone. People using whole new terms here (drastically different terms) and openly joking about things that make me aghast doesn't change how I plan my analysis or what sort of stuff makes me respond versus just politely nodding my head and taking note to myself of how it sounded to me.

I think we both agree that there isn't a lot to learn from examining the bios. Objectively there is very little info in there. But I think you feel there is close to nothing, and I see all data points as mineable data that should be included. And there is definitely SOME data there. To me this is vital data because it predates the ability to know wolf vs villager. Too bad very few people put actual info in there.

Is this a fair assessment of your view and a clear stament of mine?

Plus I used it to back up a character we mostly seem to accept as villager. So I'd like to think even if you can't see the merit in it, you can realize im probably not using it for bad since I'm defending the guy voting for me with it. Much to my own chagrin.
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Old 06-16-2015, 07:24 AM   #644
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Almost edited a post! Thankfully didnt. Wanted to just add to my first paragraph, a game of top tier players is no place to break out your "B" game and use strategic approaches you aren't totally comfortable with. Especially with a bunch of people you don't know, need your most reliable techniques.
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Old 06-16-2015, 07:32 AM   #645
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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I just find playstyle is immutable. An angry person will always get baited into anger. A thoughtful person will always sit back and wait for others to make a misstep when things get complex. An aggressive wolf hunter will all ways get the taste for blood and revert to their usual methods. Change in format doesn't change the players personality or comfort zone. People using whole new terms here (drastically different terms) and openly joking about things that make me aghast doesn't change how I plan my analysis or what sort of stuff makes me respond versus just politely nodding my head and taking note to myself of how it sounded to me.
That's where we disagree then. Not completely, I think the fundamentals will remain the same (mostly), but I just think it is likely some players will be mixing it up to adapt better to this new format. I typically like doing slow, long analysis, but that's isn't likely to be effective here when the day is moving along so quickly, for example. All that sort of thing, really.
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I think we both agree that there isn't a lot to learn from examining the bios. Objectively there is very little info in there. But I think you feel there is close to nothing, and I see all data points as mineable data that should be included. And there is definitely SOME data there. To me this is vital data because it predates the ability to know wolf vs villager. Too bad very few people put actual info in there.

Is this a fair assessment of your view and a clear stament of mine?
Yeah, i think that's fair. As I said, I can see that you have reason there, we just differ in the actual merits we believe it has.
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Plus I used it to back up a character we mostly seem to accept as villager. So I'd like to think even if you can't see the merit in it, you can realize im probably not using it for bad since I'm defending the guy voting for me with it. Much to my own chagrin.
However, I believe that this doesn't actually go far in helping yourself, as it's starting to get into WIFOM territory. I'd say it is also a fair possibility that, as scum, you would be using it to get some town credit by looking to find an excuse to read that player as town (as you obviously wouldn't want to show that you know they are town). I am, however, satisfied with your explanation, and I think we've run the course of the discussion on this particular point. It ultimately comes down to different perspectives more than anything here, so we wont get far debating whose belief is better. That's a big part of why I have removed my vote now, because you elaborated on where you were coming from with it. Is that a fair conclusion, to you?
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Old 06-16-2015, 07:44 AM   #646
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Seems legit, and I agree. Not a ton to say further on it.

I'm sort of bummed at how little I have to offer, but the sheer volume of posts along with how certain everyone seems to be at day one just leaves me lagging a bit behind. I'm sure this is the fourth time I said it, but this first day really feels like a crap shoot until someone died and I have some barometer of right vs wrong feels. I'm just going to push more specifically from people when I can and see what comes of it.
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Old 06-16-2015, 08:44 AM   #647
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

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i mean that is literally why i voted you
My apologies if I missed something on this page but you voted for me for pressure without anything else. Like, there isn't anything to this vote except "Hey, talk!" where others have been lynched for less.

This is also why you peaked my scum-dar.

Same questions to you now that banksy put to me but doubled and going both ways.

Sinking mafia ship - you have to kill 2 and save 2. Obvi but pointing it out - the two you are killing are the people you think are mafia (wolves) and the people you are saving are people you think are town (villagers).

(also, about to head into a block of meetings so I will be back to read the rest of the what occurred during my rest period - something has to pay the bills to support my mafia habit)
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Old 06-16-2015, 09:10 AM   #648
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Posted from a freakin mac

Votes from post 9 to post 647
Night in 10:51:00

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5 MSU bhuber2010 (16), RatchetOPB (49), Riki (101), SmartBomb (37), TehBankertin (161)
2 cue5c DocEspana (20), fontisian (44)
1 DocEspana Achromatic (38)
1 dorian78 Slendy (19)
1 Riki MSU (16)
1 TehBankertin cue5c (69)
2 not voting dorian78 (16), road (47)
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Old 06-16-2015, 09:40 AM   #649
cue5c
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by RatchetOPB View Post
To be fair, anything could be seen as implicating something. Virtually any post made could do so, and the concept seems pretty out there and, dare I say, redundant to me.
Yes, but "someone trying to mimic their town play, but not in a mafia way" is pretty damn specific. I'm not saying that was your intent, though I did push that, but it's coming off to me like you're trying to downplay any attention on you. It's really mostly gut vibes, but it's day 1 and something I'd rather not ignore.
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Old 06-16-2015, 09:45 AM   #650
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Re: The 2015 Mafia Championship: Game 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmartBomb View Post
I really do like Riki as he is striving to interact with pretty much everyone in thread and trying to focus on a nonscummy perspective when interacting with people. Like he's different to me in that he has no self-consciousness hampering him and that's a very townie thing in general. He's really insightful too.

I love his 12 reads even if I don't agree with some of them them and the fact that he listed them before going off is also great. He's working really hard despite his comments to the contrary and he's been on point with catching small things (see MSU no lynch Day 1 meta) and he's been interacting with I think everyone so far? Except for bhuber haha

Like, he's been both right and strong the entire game and I really like that, generally I don't like people who are right but his... tone, while doing so, I guess, doesn't read scum to me. I think he's the towniest guy in the game so far, might even go over Banks.
Which is weird because I feel like MSU, if scum, is protecting Riki if he ends up being the lynch.
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