Quote:
Originally Posted by Achromatic
I have been told often enough that my town reading people isn't proper play. That it doesn't make sense. That it's wrong. I was told this in the first game on this site, in fact. As...I proceeded to correctly town read several people. I don't use the standard book of mafia play, and I understand that when people question me about it, but I also know I am very keen and am often correct. You call it a fallacy, I call it good instinct. Although broader point here, I think everyone uses some fallacies at some point just due to personal experience. Or maybe I am 'bad.'
I don't agree here, I think town tend to make more of an effort to not use fallacies as they usually don't need to do so, considering that the intent behind should be genuine. But I'm content to leave this point here, as this debate isn't looking like it's to go anywhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achromatic
Between you and I it never occurred to me that Slendy wouldn't make it back before deadline when I pushed for him. People kept saying this yesterday and I just voted him because he hadn't shown me anything when I isolated him.
This is very easy to say though. Granted, you haven't really got a way to disprove it, so there's that to consider.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achromatic
By the way, you are calling me a very poor scum player with this logic. "In a game where scum constitutes less than 25%, let's bus day one when someone is afk that makes sense!" I mean... okay sure no one knows my scum play and stuff, but god that's just such a poor play if true. I'm insulted.
I'm sorry you took it that way, because that isn't what I was implicating. I've seen scum play extremely safe and be too afraid to bus their scum mates. I've seen bus happy scum throw any member of their team out there to help themselves. I don't see bussing Day 1 as poor scum play. Mathematically, it doesn't change the fact that you still need to force 4 mislynches either way, and with no forms of night protection in this game, having to make an extra kill isn't particularly a drawback.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achromatic
Also good for you to notice that I thought Slendy appeared much more town when he returned. I couldn't have made it much clearer, I feel.
I don't see how you got that from his posts though. I could just be biased here, but I'm not seeing town intent in his vote. I'm seeing "save me".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achromatic
To hell with this. Mafia to me is just as much as how you say things as it is about what you say. I mean we can have a debate for hours if you like over this point because I absolutely 100% disagree. Mafia is about finding the nuances of what people say, and I often find that nakedly asking "why are you voting for me?" is very scummy.
Then we disagree again. I don't disagree that phrasing is important, but I place what is being said way above how it is being said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achromatic
The way you said it struck a nerve. The way you like to countervote is also striking a nerve, I just don't know if it's a scummy one. This is a bold move and a bold vote, that's in your favor because I tend to assume scum are cowardly creatures.
See, my issue here is that there is nothing for me to defend with, other than saying that there is nothing for me to defend with. It comes across to me as a case where it looks like there is solid reasoning provided, but ultimately there is little substance in the fabric of the argument. I mean, at best, it's subjective.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achromatic
Manipulative in that I was trying to push your wagon, sure. I mean... that's what people do, regardless of allignment.
I like to make a distinction between persuasive and manipulative. Manipulative I tend to put under nefarious intent, whereas persuasive is a fundamental part of the game for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achromatic
Also your reasoning for Slendy was all over the place. "I think he is scum" "he could give information" it was very weird and warped as I read it. You kept bouncing all over the place.
Now, I can see how you can to this conclusion. I'll be frank - my approach for Day 1 was to be quite relaxed. I've gotten into that habit after being killed off earlyish often, especially when I first started playing Mafia. I like to grow into the game, to be that guy at LyLo who organises what is on the table and comes up with the best possible lynch that can be made. I'm methodical in that sense.
As for the actual point at hand, it wasn't so much that I was bouncing than it was I was adding things to my reasoning. I ideally would have compiled this all in one post, but I was quite rushed and I didn't have much time, so I was just writing the first point in my head, sending it, and then getting onto the next one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achromatic
True, I am a bit of a bastard I can confess to that. You treat mafia as a debate, eh? Hm, gives me some information to your psyche. I can see how that lines up with how you played yesterday. I guess it isn't alignment determining though but I'll say we don't play very similarly then. I look for passion and that... town spark that's hard to describe. I am starting to gather that I could play fifty games with you and may never see it.
I can accept that, fair enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achromatic
This is just going to be a difference of mafia philosophy. I could link you to dozens of games where such murkiness either led to scum directly or caught scum out. For example, if you are town I would suspect that at least some scum could be found on one of the off shoot wagons because scum have this bad habit of not liking to muck it up in these things if they are town v town.
Again, fair enough. I don't deny the possibility at all, I just see these things differently, clearly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achromatic
Good read though, very mechanical though but maybe that's just your style. I didn't respond to your defense because I didn't like the nature of it. You're an interesting player, well done.
Thank you, appreciated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slendy
Ratchet: it would seem that one of me/Achro is the likely SHC.
Can you just explain what that term actually means? I've been meaning to ask.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slendy
With Bomb and cue having already flipped Town, that makes the wagon on you VERY clean actually. (Talking about the point when the wagon reached a critical mass -- not EoD when cue had unvoted due to Bomb seeming weird).
I don't agree. We know 2 town were on my wagon at some point or another. I however, am certain that at the very least on scum is on my wagon, it doesn't make sense to me otherwise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slendy
Why doesn't MSU's Vote on you interest you? If there's Scum-influence on your wagon, shouldn't that CLEARLY be the most suspect Vote on you?
When did I say anything about me not being interested in MSU's vote? I clearly put him in my scum reads, and cited his behaviour, alright, so I didn't explicitly mention the vote but I think it's pretty clear I do suspect MSU. As for your second question, no, absolutely not, I don't agree that he should
clearly be the most suspect vote. If we are looking purely for opportunistic scum, then maybe you have a point, but I, as I've shown, have interpreted this differently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slendy
Okay got X-posted... Umm, no, Ratchet, the Scumteam does NOT out themselves by banding together to Vote for you to save their afk-member when all the other options according to you are Town.
That's just it. They're not outing themselves. I was quite a simple wagon to push because I wasn't at the forefront of discussion and people who eventually voted for me had already expressed some degree of suspicion against me. Considering the chaos that ensued, it could easily be deflected away and dismissed as a panic vote justified through your comeback rather than the actual degree of suspicious behaviour shown by me.
Also, can you elaborate on the bold please?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slendy
If you're Town please take the post above by me into consideration --chances are your Wagon was VERY clean, and Achro is absolutely right about SCUM being more cautious at end-of-Phase CFD-situations.
I take every post into consideration, but I do not agree with you here. I also don't like "chances are" - I think that's it quite manipulative phrasing. Chances are any wagon is mostly clean if we're going by that logic, because town have a greater than 3:1 ratio to scum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slendy
Like, if Scum joined the Wagon on you, why would two of them do it (since Scum tend to be afraid of that making them appear in a bad light) when they could've easily kept all the town-cred they had up until that point by playing it safer? If there was Scum on your wagon, probably only one, and probably MSU rather than Achro who is wow such Town.
Textbook WIFOM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slendy
Also there are many plausible teams that weren't able to be online in the first place during the EoD1-shenanigans.
Now this is just completely deflecting away from my points. I don't like this sentence at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slendy
Ratchet, a question for you: what would you say has been the content you have independently generated and contributed to this game so far? No need to multiquote everything, I just want to hear what you remember you have provided us of your train of thought.
I helped with getting the game started, questioning your usage of logic for one. I helped get information from Doc, I've attempted to call out posts I do not agree with and offer reasons why, I've offered reads throughout the day to let people know my view on people and I've questioned people, like MSU, to get a better read on them for myself and the rest of the Town.
