Im gonna look for fakepeeks and a SHC now

Agree with you Doc on Ratchet - I really hated that Cue switched his vote. Really did. Although I had my suspicions on Bomb and I was wrong.

I still think Ratchet is mafia - but more on that in a second because I would like to talk with Dorian.

@Dorian - here you say:

Do you still feel the same way after the flip? If so, why? If not, why?

@Doc - what is your read on Dorian? Do you still find him neutral?

So if we assume Cue was SHK'd, as we probably should, should we assume that him calling me the Cop was what the Mafia took for the N0-peek (added with how 'easily' he came off of me), or was there an actual peek left by him?

First things first, though: going to go through RatchetOPB.

I started from the beginning, and he is only talking in a townvoice about achro so far. Also this could easily be considered a fakepeek.

What I meant was he until that point only have called one guy town, and that was achro. and he repeated that. Slendy, where did he write that? cue wrote a whole lot of posts, so tough to go through them all

Also lol, i totally ignored eod. It was very interesting and there should be some info available. It is possible it was 3 villagers, but maybe a resolving of the wagons is the way to go?

On my site we usuallt do that but in this exact case, where cue was the one voting smartbomb last, i think the benefit of the infogaining is less than normal.

Assuming ratchet is lynched scum we would normally feel a lot better about lynching cue. What more info can we gain? I mean, if Ratchet is villager, there are no real information to gain. But if we should infolynch him, it is important to make sure we actually gain some info if he turns scum.

I might have to look more closely to the eod, as this would be my default play.

^^ also havent considered any read on Ratchet - this is purely a strategic consideration. Can anyone sum up the case on Ratchet?

I'm making a compilation of Ratchet's posts right now, road, but I did notice Cue asking Achro to elaborate on why they Townread him (Cue), for whatever that's worth.

I remember Cue calling me the Cop pretty much right off the bat. If his Vote on me was just following Achro like he'd promised (which he could've done for reasons other than implying Achro as the N0-peek; depends on the context, which I haven't read yet -- how seriously Cue was trying to question Achro is one telling thing that you could look for) it's possible.

Also cue did try to change to Ratchet but that came late. A moot point since cue is teh deadz now, but definitely wouldn't have been anything to hold AGAINST him.

I think it is interesting that none of the early wagons ended up being a real wagon:

MSU
dorian
bhuber
Slendy

I would be veeeery surprised if there are 0 scum in these 4. Actually i would think there often are at least 2 (but that is because I have villager peek on Banks and Achro and villager read on fonti.

I think my work on d2 would be to focus on MSU and Slendy (as i think bhuber was villagery towards end of d1, and i kind of liked dorian the whole way). This could be two scum avoiding a lynch - and in that case, the last scum was probably one of them leading the lynch towards bomb/ratchet/cue

((Also I haven't forgotten about my need for an avatar, I just can't get the forum to accept the .pgn-file. ))

Hmm I just thought of this, when you quoted his answer to me. Dont know why i missed it yesterday.
But assuming im a villager (as i know, therefore the assumption) wouldnt you say that his answer is kind of pleasing. Again he coud just be polite and thats fair, but he never considers my alignment (even though he talks about more than the 3 i asked about) - and we discussed for like 6-7 posts if i remember correct.

I get a feeling that he knows im a villager in his tone. maybe im just being paranoid lol

(This goes out to all that feel it is a question worth an answer, however msu is online and read it in context therefore directing it to you)

He did, but this could be angleshooting as well. Assuming cue was still alive I would not consider this in regards to deciding on his alignment. Anyways, dont think this is important anymore, so just a general comment.

Oh well gotta focus on studies.. will tune in on/off and answer/ask questions if theres something interesting.

About to head to sleep. But my feel on Dorian isn't significantly changed, but that's mostly because I do have 200 posts still left to read.

What do you mean kind of pleasing? Sorry- not understanding this here. What are you referring to when you say "he never considers your alignment" - what interaction am I forgetting?

I look forward to that comp.

Hmm I wouldnt normally think you could be his peek if he at some time voted you. However on my site most players use to write their peeks quite clearly to avoid letting there be discussion about the peek. I'm open for what others think about it

I asked dorian who his 3 biggest villaread was (i believe he talked about his scumreads just before). And he answers with 3 guys and still mentioning two others. There not limiting his answer to be about my question but to talk about his reads.

But I would find it natural when talking broader than the question to actually consider and express what he thinks of the guy asking him the question (that being me).

Let's say you asked me about my 3 biggest villareads, then I answer which and elaborate on two others guys I too find villagery (but not elaborating on the biggest villareads - important). Wouldnt you find it weird if i then didnt mention what i think of you. It seems like answering the questions too much and therefore "pleasing" someone he knows are a villager.

Meh while writing this, it might be thin. I just got that "ahhhhh wow" feeling when reading it again...

I just ISO of Dorian and couldn't find his scum reads (I didn't do it thoroughly enough i guess).

But yeah, I agree - why not mention the guy who pointing the gun at you?

Although if you asked me gun to my head who I think I would kill and who I would save (3 vs. 3) I might not mention you because I might be unsure about you.

But it depends on the context - I will have to go back and read the full interaction.

So I'm going to start off here. This slipped by me first time, but upon consideration, I really don't like this post. The issue I have here is that he doesn't seem to care whether he is using fallacies or not. In fact, he doesn't even want to argue that his argument is not fallacious. Scum typically use fallacies because they, if well-disguised, offer a good way of making a persuasive point that disguises the false premise the point itself has. Scum have to poke holes in logic, and come up with false logical assertions to be able to argue almost anything, with fallacies offering a great way to do that, if the execution is right. I don't know about anyone else, but I certainly wouldn't be happy to be told that my point is fallacious, and I would actually look further into whether it actually is.

So, here are his post before Slendy appeared. At the time, it looked like Slendy wasn't making it back before the deadline, at least with enough time to shake his votes off. He is clearly trying to push the wagon, and I've bolded the particularly relevant bits for this itself, asking multiple times to get votes on Slendy. No one esle, all day phase, has he pushed this hard. Not even close.

Now this is his first on-topic post since Slendy returned. It's a far cry from his earlier posts, where he was stuck on the Slendy lynch.

And here is the very next post he makes. No one has persuaded him, like he alluded to last post, he just jumped on board. The point he has given is just terrible as well. Asking for reasoning is an integral part in analyzing behaviour and votes. If someone gives a poor reason, then it doesn't reflect well on them, and if someone gives a good reason, but are wrong, it doesn't have to reflect negatively on them. Given the very real chance of me being lynched there, I think getting the actual reasoning out in the open is quite a positive thing when it comes to the aftermath of the lynch, and where to go from there. Additionally, there have been many others who have asked for reasons behind votes on them, and he has never, to my knowledge, objected to them, but somehow his logic only applies here. Applying logic selectively to suit your own purpose is a tool of scum. If you find something suspicious, you find it suspicious, who it is that did it shouldn't matter.

And this is another poor argument. He treats a vote that was clearly reasoned as if it has to be outright scummy. I have never considered voting to save yourself scummy, but it wasn't just a vote to save myself either. In the last reads list I posted, I believe I had Slendy at Null, and before that I had said I wuld be willing to swap onto him, before Slendy even returned if memory serves. So to act like it was a reactionary vote out of the blue to counter Slendy is not only warping the facts and context of the matter to ridiculous degrees, it's manipulative.

This is awfully a narrow definition of what constitutes "playing the game". I present peoples arguments as I see them, I often treat Mafia as a debate in fact, so of course I'm interested in what he wants to get an understanding of the logic he is applying. That, to me, is playing the game. It's not like all I did was debate point either, however.

Now this is particularly scummy. I am of the belief that speedlynching is typically bad for Town. I do not agree whatsoever that this sort of chaos is good in the long run. It makes it hard to read people's reactions, because there is a large degree of panic there, and you have also got to factor in how people were able to keep up with the thread and whether they had missed anything at the time in the chaos. A composed, well reasoned lynch that the majority agrees on is always better for town, in my opinion. That way, you know that for the most part, it is in fact the town who is deciding the lynch, and not scum slipping on or making a wagon late on.

And I don't like this post either. I frequently asked for reasons and got very little if anything back (I need to have something to make a defense after all - if the only reason against me is that my posts "could possibly maybe imply something scummy perhaps", there isn't a whole lot to actually defend against ). Which is why I said I have done all I can do. I argued against the points, I gave multiple arguments against other players, and who I wanted lynched, I mean, I can't think of anything else I could have done. Especially considering the timing of the wagon and the peak in activity - it's not like I had a whole day phase to counter arguments by making posts like this, or a lot of time to defend myself at all, the wagon started extremely late at exactly the time where it had enough time left to pick up and could be pushed through using the chaos of the whole end of the day without having to be particularly well reasoned or argued.

The fact is that you have failed to properly address my defense at all. You essentially said "this is clearly scummy" without showing why. It was opportunistic at best.

To conclude, I believe Achro is scum. I believe he is scum with Slendy. I interpret his original vote on Slendy as looking to bus him, as he didn't have a good presence in the thread, was a solid Day 1 lynch and would have gave a lot of town credit to Achro had the lynch gone through. Nearly as soon as Slendy returned, he completely threw out his argument against Slendy and followed his lynch, despite having suspected Slendy to be scum. This complete U-turn to me comes off as hedging his bets - he saw that he had a chance to push through an easy mislynch with a lot of chaos set to happen and planned to use that chaos to go back on Slendy and not have to lose his scum mate Day 1. In that case, even if Slendy happened to be lynched, he could point to the fact that he was pushing Slendy all day phase to deflect accusations away of him trying to pull votes away from Slendy.

That is my interpretation of his actions, as I do not see those posts being made as Town. That is why I am voting for him.

Achromatic

Aww, poor Cue. He was fun to play with.

So font is probably town just based off the sheer amount of... let's call it stubbornness to be polite when it comes to cue. That reads as town conviction to me, especially when another town lynch (Smartbomb) could have easily come.

My problem with Ratchet near the end, and why I stayed on him, is that his defense of himself was very mechanical and lacked passion. "I don't see how I am the best lynch" is very... neutral to me. It didn't invoke town passion that I look for.

New day though, we should examine everything obviously, but yeah whereas I saw a lot of passion from a lot of people Ratchet just didn't feel genuine to me.

@Ratchet - can I get a 3 by 3 from you?

Gun to head and one in your hand - who are you killing?

Gun to your head and a boat to Disney World/Harry Potter land/their favorite bar/home with netflix and takeout where nothing but fun and excitement awaits, who are you saving?

By "3x3", do you mean 3 scum reads and 3 town reads? If so:

Town -
Banks - I really liked how he dealt with the end of day discussion. I've read him as town from early on, but that just solidified it. He was reasonable and appealed for logic over emotion.

Riki - Covered this last day phase in depth.

Fonti - Another one I liked from end of day particularly. She was pushing Cue, and although she was wrong, I think scum would be more looking to capitilize on the chaos rather than push their suspect through all the way. My weakest town read by far, but it's worth noting.

Scum -
Achro - Case above.

Slendy - Depends heavily on Achro's alignment, but his timely entrance, it all worked very convieniantly for him. His quick vote on me this Day Phase doesn't help his case either.

MSU - You were quite wishy-washy at the end. You're sudden read on me being Mafia was completely unsubstantiated, and I believe last day phase you said I offered more information, and now you suddenly read me as Mafia entirely. There is a clear difference there. I could be wrong on your reasoning though/missed something, so feel free to correct me on that.
Achro.
Banks.

Let's dance, Ratchet.

I have been told often enough that my town reading people isn't proper play. That it doesn't make sense. That it's wrong. I was told this in the first game on this site, in fact. As...I proceeded to correctly town read several people. I don't use the standard book of mafia play, and I understand that when people question me about it, but I also know I am very keen and am often correct. You call it a fallacy, I call it good instinct. Although broader point here, I think everyone uses some fallacies at some point just due to personal experience. Or maybe I am 'bad.'


Between you and I it never occurred to me that Slendy wouldn't make it back before deadline when I pushed for him. People kept saying this yesterday and I just voted him because he hadn't shown me anything when I isolated him. By the way, you are calling me a very poor scum player with this logic. "In a game where scum constitutes less than 25%, let's bus day one when someone is afk that makes sense!" I mean... okay sure no one knows my scum play and stuff, but god that's just such a poor play if true. I'm insulted. Also good for you to notice that I thought Slendy appeared much more town when he returned. I couldn't have made it much clearer, I feel.

To hell with this. Mafia to me is just as much as how you say things as it is about what you say. I mean we can have a debate for hours if you like over this point because I absolutely 100% disagree. Mafia is about finding the nuances of what people say, and I often find that nakedly asking "why are you voting for me?" is very scummy. The way you said it struck a nerve. The way you like to countervote is also striking a nerve, I just don't know if it's a scummy one. This is a bold move and a bold vote, that's in your favor because I tend to assume scum are cowardly creatures.
Manipulative in that I was trying to push your wagon, sure. I mean... that's what people do, regardless of allignment. Also your reasoning for Slendy was all over the place. "I think he is scum" "he could give information" it was very weird and warped as I read it. You kept bouncing all over the place.
True, I am a bit of a bastard I can confess to that. You treat mafia as a debate, eh? Hm, gives me some information to your psyche. I can see how that lines up with how you played yesterday. I guess it isn't alignment determining though but I'll say we don't play very similarly then. I look for passion and that... town spark that's hard to describe. I am starting to gather that I could play fifty games with you and may never see it.
This is just going to be a difference of mafia philosophy. I could link you to dozens of games where such murkiness either led to scum directly or caught scum out. For example, if you are town I would suspect that at least some scum could be found on one of the off shoot wagons because scum have this bad habit of not liking to muck it up in these things if they are town v town.

Good read though, very mechanical though but maybe that's just your style. I didn't respond to your defense because I didn't like the nature of it. You're an interesting player, well done.

So apparently I took too long and the search/MQs got reseted. FML gonna have to give a manual re-cap.

Ratchet: it would seem that one of me/Achro is the likely SHC. With Bomb and cue having already flipped Town, that makes the wagon on you VERY clean actually. (Talking about the point when the wagon reached a critical mass -- not EoD when cue had unvoted due to Bomb seeming weird).

Why doesn't MSU's Vote on you interest you? If there's Scum-influence on your wagon, shouldn't that CLEARLY be the most suspect Vote on you?

Okay got X-posted... Umm, no, Ratchet, the Scumteam does NOT out themselves by banding together to Vote for you to save their afk-member when all the other options according to you are Town. If you're Town please take the post above by me into consideration --chances are your Wagon was VERY clean, and Achro is absolutely right about SCUM being more cautious at end-of-Phase CFD-situations.