Me calling you wolfy had more to do with you lock-accepting CT's lost wolf theory than anything else. It sounded like you had an agenda there. Obviously you did not, in hindsight, but unfortunately as the game progresses we do not have the benefit of hindsight.

And since when is calling someone "wolfy" or accusing them of being a wolf out-of-bounds in this game? You were by no means lock clear as far as I know. I've read time and time again that doing so is one of the BEST ways to get information out of someone. In your case, it appears to be the best way to get you to freak the **** out and start unleashing volley after volley of personal attacks.

I have a hard time blindly trusting anyone in life, but especially in WW. Anyone saying that we should trust someone and just follow their lead sounds (to me) like someone with an agenda. Whether or not they actually have an agenda, that's how it sounds. I am genuinely sorry if you don't see things that way, but being an asswhole is probably not the way to convince me nor anyone else to come around to your way of thinking.

I'm not sure if I'm explaining myself. I guess my point is that you KNEW you were a villager, so by definition you would think that anyone disagreeing with you was either a) a wolf, or b) playing poorly. That mindset makes sense, let's face it, we don't have perfect information here until post game. But unless and until you start realizing that we are not mind readers here (well, most of us, moni being a notable exception) then prepare to continue to be tilted, I guess.

DWetz

for what its worth, that you didn't get lynched after shooting a village speaks pretty highly of your play

im actually kind of having a hard time following why you seem upset

it does look like you are spending some time thinking about your approach (/optimal approaches) to the game, which is always a good thing

(I'd also contend that I should have been a LOLobvious villager after day 1 if someone bothered to look back at my interactions and I shouldn't have had to "prove" myself to anyone and that you're a moron for thinking otherwise. But of course your reads are never ever wrong, so you can't have made that mistake.)

that's not what I was doing though. at least not at first. like, what the hell do you want from me? I was pretty sure hold'em was a villager, but you really want me to go out of my way everytime in spots like these to make an overly convincing case just so you won't shoot him in the head? it's not how this works, mate. you're absolutely missing the point here: this is a T E A M game, you're a team player. it's so much more arrogant of you to shoot hold'em when me and vyk were screaming not to and we BOTH have more meta than you have AND you didn't think either of us were wolves than it's arrogant of me to just tell you 'do as i say'. which wasn't what i was doing. i was saying 'do what vyk says, he has a better hold of this game than we do right now'. YOU needed to be a hero. that WAS a hero shot no matter how sure you were that hold'em was a wolf. the problem YOU BOTH have is that you can't do any team work. quite clearly.

I wasn't even talking about me being always rght or vyk being always right. I was just saying vyk was being right more often than you and BOTH should listen to him. you both didn't. and ffs I did explain each and everyone of my thought processes, you and ash just chose to ignore me. meh.

the post above was to dwetzel if that's not clear

Now go back and post the stuff you either did not respond to or made a response that seemed 'wolfy' (fwiw, each time I found one of your responses suspect, I said so and gave my reasoning, at least I tried to).

You claimed to have re-read CDL, but completely missed his very last post in the thread (the purple text/ "RIG THE GAME"). I mean, come on. ANYONE who does that in any game is automatically going to draw at least some nonzero level of suspicion to himself regardless of his meta. This was the basis (well this and Kruze) of my suspicion of CDL and others' as well, and you claimed not to have even noticed it until Gad pointed it out! I won't even bother going into how you were pretty much the only one who thought forsy and binkles had spewed you clear, as it is well documented itt.

Obviously as I stated before, we have the benefit of hindsight now and my shat on you in hindsight was bad, but if you want to keep pretending that you played optimal the entire game while the rest of us just sucked and we won because of you and in spite of ourselves then lol u.

yeah you need to start trusting people more, especially when their reads are blatantly clearly better than yours. I don't feel like going on with this because your thinking process wrt werewolf is so amazingly wrong but only with time you'll realise that I guess.

Two points (and this is intended constructively):


1. All players should have agendas, including villagers. If anything wolves will have more flexible agendas as any lynch of a villager is generally a good thing.

2. Calling players wolfy can be very informative but there are many more elements involved. Anytime you pressure a player aggressively you run the risk that your efforts to clear a player through high-pressure tactics are manipulated by wolves to control the wagon.

This right here is what I am talking about. Do you not see how exploitable this mindset could be? Not that it IS, mind you, that it COULD be? Traps like that are quite easy to fall into. Forsy fell victim to it in a game a few months back where we were at must lynch and binkles was wolf and I was villa. The village basically lynched the wrong guy solely based on the fact that they trusted the experienced player (who happened to be a wolf) more. I'm not saying it's totally incorrect to do that. I'm saying it's bad to do it at face value, especially when there are neutrals in the game.

Vyk could very easily have played the exact same game he played itt as a neutral. You continue to refuse to acknowledge this and then blame us for poor play. That does not make sense to me.

start of d4 imo

also lolvyk magic reads. acc + tchaz wolves --> go play the pit games . gjge

I mean, the only reason my play didn't cost anything is, let's be honest, we got a peeked wolf and that bought time. I fully get that. I actually think I played rather well other than that despite getting as much wrong as I did.

What irritates me about this more than anything is that it's that nothing is likely to change in the future, because people who are ostensibly trying to be villagers refuse to discuss things in game*, or think that "shut up and do this" is an adequate, or even THE, correct way to play werewolf.

even if he was a neutral, he needed dwetzel to shoot a wolf. we could still trust him. and like... probably the binkles at ML thing is a completely different scenario. i'm pretty sure binkles didn't bus his entire wolf team before that lol.

but yeah like, just go by your instincts. you'll be wrong a ****load of time and you'll learn. I did that in the past and I learnt from it. me saying it to you won't change ****.

Let me be more specific on my point then: By "agenda" above I mean, "Convincing the village to act in some way that is ultimately detrimental to the village."

With the presence of neutrals in this game, that motivation CANNOT be overlooked imo. We know now (and basically pretty much knew the whole time) that there were neutrals present in this game. Knowing (or at the very least sincerely believing) that there are neutrals to hunt as well as wolves, can you think of any reason why vyk (or ANYONE) should be blindly trusted?

This is an honest question btw, I'm not trying to start an argument.


Point taken.

that was not information we had when vyk told dwetzel to shoot accobra... meh nevermind I don't wanna be in this discussion anyway.

Explain please. We already had an outed wolf at that point did we not? Why would it be an absolute necessity for vyk (or any potential neutral for that matter) to absolutely get a wolf in that spot? The way the game played out it appears to me as though this is simply not the case.

The neutrals were immune to vigs as well, is that right?

there were three wolves left after TN was lynched... at the time we didn't know there were two neutrals cause lol two neutrals, but anyway even with two neutrals eliminating the wolf team and taking charge of the night kills (those dayvigs were NKs) would be clearly optimal so eliminating the wolf team at that spot was good. and either way leaning neutral on someone is pretty weird lol. pretty sure only high drafted poggers can do stuff like that

Ashington, I made a good faith effort to answer your questions. I'm not that interested in debating what constitutes 'good enough' for you.

Werewolf is a difficult game and next time you play you will have a better time of what to expect from me. I hope you do keep playing.

Also as a general rule, mish-mashes are EXTREMELY complicated and frequently unbalanced. You may wish to consider getting some more vanillas under your belt to increase your comfort level, because not knowing the game design can drive people crazy. Its much easier to decide and explain how you are going to make reads when you don't have to worry about 'poisonous godfather wolves' and the like.

And the retort to this is that your reads don't mean **** in a vaccum, it's my perception of your reads that matter when I'm the one with a decision, and if you can't properly communicate why your reads are better, that is at least in part your fault.

If people (and in this game this is mainly directed at vyk more than anyone) refuse to attempt to show your work when repeatedly asked, and as a result your reads aren't trusted as much as you think they should be, then maybe you need to figure out how to clearly explain your reads. I can point to multiple times where I said "why do you feel that way" and got no answer. At that point it's fair to assume that your mystical reads aren't as clear as you present them to be.

(Which is another pet peeve of mine -- people over-selling their reads in general. People with six LOCK OUTED WOLVES on day 1 can go suck a dick and it's YOUR fault when later you have a real LOCK OUTED WOLF and nobody believes you.)

...And it hinders the ability of your LOCK OUTED WOLVES to actually play the game in the event that they are, y'know, actually villagers.

I lost any shred of respect I ever had for vyk and KruZe this game for that reason.

(Seriously, read the beginning of d2. EVERY POST I MAKE where I'm trying to give reads, vyk jumps up and yells about how he's not going to let me lead the thread because I'm a wolf. He wouldn't even let me try to interact with people in peace until I pointed out to him repeatedly that if he thought I was such a lock wolf, he should be content to let me spew. Really, really f**king frustrating.)

Curiously, that part bothers me less because even if you calibrate your read intensity correctly you're still going to be putting pressure on the wrong people.

It's when you convince yourself that someone isn't worth listening to at all that you're a nitwit. (See: XXsooted in this game, who refused to engage a villager because they thought that person was a wolf "30-50% of the time".) (Edit: Yeah, or that.)

I think we're talking about the same thing from different angles.

We did not know at that time that there were three wolves left after the TN lynch. You are saying this with the benefit of hindsight. There was ZERO way of knowing that at the time. And why are you loling at the notion of two neutrals? I co-modded the Pirates game with you and there were TWO NEUTRALS in that game, yet you are here acting as though this is some unheard-of concept.

More unhelpful condescension.

We knew there were neutrals, the neutrals had to be eliminated in order for the village to win, it's ****ing ******ed to assume that we should not attempt to identify them.

No one can ever be blindly trusted. The longer vyk isn't nightkilled, the more I would wonder about whether he needs to be lynched.

The most important thing for me in answering this question is that ww is an incremental game. I aim to put myself in a position to solve it and win it by must-lynch.

D1 I generally try to clear a few villagers, and stop the worst wagon. I assume we won't lynch a wolf most of the time.

Everyday all you can do is whittle away at the puzzle a little bit more. With vyk you can say - he is 99% not a wolf - a wolf would never give away his own seer, especially if there is a neutral team that could kill him if they thought he was a villager.

Then you say, well he might be a neutral, but there are still wolfs (mod said he would announce when a team lost), and one of the 2 teams is going to have to resolve him. The cost of mislynching him if he is a villager could be game-breaking. So you postpone the decision as long as you can and focus on everyone else.

I hope this kind of answers the question.

I'm happy to accept all of this in stride. What frustrated me most about you wrt CDL was the fact that you completely missed the wolfiest thing he said and then were incredulous that anyone might find that suspicious. I still don't get it. But watevs. I will make an effort going forward at keeping an open mind wrt your thread interactions.