11/15 NBA Mishmash Game Thread
B+ rant
It's hard to learn more about the game when Awesome Werewolf Players such as yourself and vyk just say "shut up and trust me" instead of "here's why I am making this read". For what should be obvious reasons, "shut up and trust me" shouldn't work.
That was at moni obv
As someone who is still newer and has plenty left to learn and improve upon, I empathize with Ashington and DWetzel on this.
(Mostly just toward moni. Vyk is a good enough dude IMO.)
(Mostly just toward moni. Vyk is a good enough dude IMO.)
I think ww is a lot more fun when people try and work together and explain stuff
of course that doesn't stop me from being a grumpy old man a lot and trying to pull rank on people :P
of course that doesn't stop me from being a grumpy old man a lot and trying to pull rank on people :P
To be clear, I don't have a problem with either of them personally, but it's bull**** to both say "get better" and to refuse to respond to perfectly rational questions from people trying to get better.
I guess my play here should have been to just say "shut up I am a lol obvious villager I will shoot who I want".
I guess my play here should have been to just say "shut up I am a lol obvious villager I will shoot who I want".
You're one of the friendlier faces on here toward us newer players, so you need not worry.
To be clear, I don't have a problem with either of them personally, but it's bull**** to both say "get better" and to refuse to respond to perfectly rational questions from people trying to get better.
I guess my play here should have been to just say "shut up I am a lol obvious villager I will shoot who I want".
I guess my play here should have been to just say "shut up I am a lol obvious villager I will shoot who I want".
here's his gameplan:
1) tunnel someone
2) they flip villa
3) learn nothing
4) tunnel them the next game
5) one day they'll actually rand wolf! then he's a genius!
Again, I realize you're great in your own mind, but you need to realize you're wrong, and often, and especially this game. I am truly sorry if you are butthurt over the fact that I "called you out," but I was responding to you calling ME out.
And me needing to "take a break" doesn't mean I am burned out on the game, it means I am trying very hard not to violate the site's TOS by telling people like you exactly what I think about them. hth
I have played with vyk a few times. He seems to have a good sense of humor and fwiw I don't take anything he says in game as anything other than an expression of that sense of humor. Maybe I'm misreading him, but he seems like a pretty carefree person who's just having fun - in stark contrast to someone like moni who freaks the **** out whenever someone dares disagree with them or their reads.
Ashington
we can agree to disagree about vyk -- his behavior towards me this game was LEAGUES beyond monik's
but I really enjoy playing with you and I hope that you return to ww soon
we can agree to disagree about vyk -- his behavior towards me this game was LEAGUES beyond monik's
but I really enjoy playing with you and I hope that you return to ww soon
It's the kind of **** that makes me just scroll through the posts from people like that and ignore pretty much everything they have to say...which is bad for the game. Engagement and conversation are key no matter what your role in this game (which is why I have no one on ignore despite how irritating they may be).
Anyway, I'm done with my rant. gg everyone
but yes, monik can often be one of my least favorite people to play with for exactly the reasons you describe, Ash
I don't even mind being told to 'get better,' if there is some constructive criticism behind it. I got virtually none of that this game. Every time I tried to query Moni on why he was saying what he was saying, the universal response was his appeal to authority logical fallacy (in this case, the 'authority' was himself) rather than engaging on the subject.
It's the kind of **** that makes me just scroll through the posts from people like that and ignore pretty much everything they have to say...which is bad for the game. Engagement and conversation are key no matter what your role in this game (which is why I have no one on ignore despite how irritating they may be).
It's the kind of **** that makes me just scroll through the posts from people like that and ignore pretty much everything they have to say...which is bad for the game. Engagement and conversation are key no matter what your role in this game (which is why I have no one on ignore despite how irritating they may be).
+1
saying I don't explain myself or answer questions isn't true; you may hate what i have to say but you aren't being honest to say i don't answer them
if you really felt you had the right side of the argument you wouldn't bring up things with Gad, who himself has no real problem with how i played with him this game [i pressured him early but had essentially cleared him a few days in]
and Ashington you aren't welcoming of constructive criticism - because even when i politely told you i wasn't interested in your line of thinking on various subjects (CDL, BOO) you were so upset i didn't agree with your reasoning that you thought it made me a wolf - when i elaborated on why i didn't agree with your reasoning you still couldn't get over it
the game is over.. my reads this game were very strong and for some reason you would rather make up facts than admit i played well
its ok not to like me.. but you aren't being close to intellectually honest
if you really felt you had the right side of the argument you wouldn't bring up things with Gad, who himself has no real problem with how i played with him this game [i pressured him early but had essentially cleared him a few days in]
and Ashington you aren't welcoming of constructive criticism - because even when i politely told you i wasn't interested in your line of thinking on various subjects (CDL, BOO) you were so upset i didn't agree with your reasoning that you thought it made me a wolf - when i elaborated on why i didn't agree with your reasoning you still couldn't get over it
the game is over.. my reads this game were very strong and for some reason you would rather make up facts than admit i played well
its ok not to like me.. but you aren't being close to intellectually honest
This is basically true. You were really annoying early, though.
Dude's just flat out lying at this point, but the conversation is really beneath me so wtfever.
moni is right though ash, you were REALLY unwelcoming constructive criticism... whenever you have the time for it and if you feel it might be worth something, please check how I went to being REALLY REALLY nice to you trying to explain stuff (wrt vyk mostly) to being completely tilted by your behaviour ITT. I was never so angry at someone while playing werewolf before, and I rarely get angry at people...
moni is right though ash, you were REALLY unwelcoming constructive criticism... whenever you have the time for it and if you feel it might be worth something, please check how I went to being REALLY REALLY nice to you trying to explain stuff (wrt vyk mostly) to being completely tilted by your behaviour ITT. I was never so angry at someone while playing werewolf before, and I rarely get angry at people...
I recall the "stop sucking/improve" part so no need to revisit that.
Moni's responses to me were barely intelligible, meandering and wolfy. If that's how he plays then my bad. If that's not how he plays then he needs to work on his communication skills.
Yeah, but you were sure I'd spewed myself wolf (seriously, PM me, I'm curious), even before I went rogue, so your opinion is obviously worthless.
to prove my point here are some posts i specifically made to ashington (i searched using his name as keyword)
people have different methods for wolf-hunting, generally the effort is more important than the method, especially early on
i haven't reviewed his posts carefully or anything but i wouldn't get too distracted by him calling you a wolf if you have other things to do
once you've given everybody the once over maybe come back to him
LKJ's addition to the conversation i actually find more troubling
i haven't reviewed his posts carefully or anything but i wouldn't get too distracted by him calling you a wolf if you have other things to do
once you've given everybody the once over maybe come back to him
LKJ's addition to the conversation i actually find more troubling
i'm not sure what criteria you are using to call him wolfy?
i reread all his posts when i just did a wagon review and my take was more that he didn't do anything, than he was doing something i found doing particularly wolfy
so im looking into other wagons, i do have certain standards for CDL but nothing that would want to make me vote him for his behavior so far
he is also a good player (in any role) so if he is a wolf i don't expect to generate a lot of useful information from pressuring him [at this point in the game]
i reread all his posts when i just did a wagon review and my take was more that he didn't do anything, than he was doing something i found doing particularly wolfy
so im looking into other wagons, i do have certain standards for CDL but nothing that would want to make me vote him for his behavior so far
he is also a good player (in any role) so if he is a wolf i don't expect to generate a lot of useful information from pressuring him [at this point in the game]
i hadn't really seen the RIG the Game thing until Gad pointed it out again
i see the mechanical argument for that
i'm not big on it still but im paying it more attention
some of its meta related
i have less history with nutshot and tchaz then everyone else on that list -- i still think i can probably read nutshot though if he posts
i see the mechanical argument for that
i'm not big on it still but im paying it more attention
some of its meta related
i have less history with nutshot and tchaz then everyone else on that list -- i still think i can probably read nutshot though if he posts
i have no idea how you think i am even close to wolfy or vig-worthy?
i don't think CDL has been wolfy, i think i've been pretty clear
the RIG the GAME post could be important, but barring evidence of that being in the game as mechanic, or even a power for a wolf to have not evne that is conclusive
i think this is an embarassing post to make before you say you will be out for the rest of the day because you basically remove yourself the responsibility of correcting a vote that is shameful
i am starting to get riled
i don't think CDL has been wolfy, i think i've been pretty clear
the RIG the GAME post could be important, but barring evidence of that being in the game as mechanic, or even a power for a wolf to have not evne that is conclusive
i think this is an embarassing post to make before you say you will be out for the rest of the day because you basically remove yourself the responsibility of correcting a vote that is shameful
i am starting to get riled
i read your case
its not how i wolfhunt
i don't think its particularly wolfy, knowing what i know of CDL and having played many games with him
i'm not really sure how many more ways there are to say it - i both read his posts and your case
of particular relevance at least to me - is the posts you are calling him wolfy for are basically posts made last night before anything has really happened - so i think they are fairly low value in determining someone's role unless they have large leaks in their game
its not how i wolfhunt
i don't think its particularly wolfy, knowing what i know of CDL and having played many games with him
i'm not really sure how many more ways there are to say it - i both read his posts and your case
of particular relevance at least to me - is the posts you are calling him wolfy for are basically posts made last night before anything has really happened - so i think they are fairly low value in determining someone's role unless they have large leaks in their game
ashington even though you might not be intending it this way leaving your vote on me now is a cop-out
if i am even in wagon discussion at the end of the day that is one wagon that is guaranteed to not have a wolf
so you are much better changing sooner as a tactic if you are a villager
if i am even in wagon discussion at the end of the day that is one wagon that is guaranteed to not have a wolf
so you are much better changing sooner as a tactic if you are a villager
LKJ and i just played a game together where we both cleared ourselves and he was playing differently this game
obviously he was a mason-seer this game
and he didnt really want to try and clear himself for that reason or maybe because he thought if he cleared himself both him and NOZE would die etc...
i had cleared NOZE yesterday but not LKJ
so no reason to be suspicious of it
is it normal for me to give weird answers? yea pretty sure other people will tell you that
obviously he was a mason-seer this game
and he didnt really want to try and clear himself for that reason or maybe because he thought if he cleared himself both him and NOZE would die etc...
i had cleared NOZE yesterday but not LKJ
so no reason to be suspicious of it
is it normal for me to give weird answers? yea pretty sure other people will tell you that
Ashington how many games have you played?
Mostly because if we have vastly different frames of reference it could be because I've probably wolfed more times than total games you have played.
So some of the assumptions I make and am comfrable making just might not feel as natural to you without the same depth of context.
Mostly because if we have vastly different frames of reference it could be because I've probably wolfed more times than total games you have played.
So some of the assumptions I make and am comfrable making just might not feel as natural to you without the same depth of context.
I wasn't clearing him, I just didn't see it as anything unusual or particularly wolfy.
CDL has a fairly balanced game, and while he wasn't necessarily trying particularly hard in his posts he wouldn't have any kind of obvious leaks in his posts as a wolf most of the time.
So if he was a wolf with some kind of power to RIG the Game for example he was unlikely to do it in a manner to maximize the heat he would draw for it.
I have a multi-stage clearing process.
I hope that answers your question, I'm sure it might sound unnecessarily complicated but that's how I approach the game.
CDL has a fairly balanced game, and while he wasn't necessarily trying particularly hard in his posts he wouldn't have any kind of obvious leaks in his posts as a wolf most of the time.
So if he was a wolf with some kind of power to RIG the Game for example he was unlikely to do it in a manner to maximize the heat he would draw for it.
I have a multi-stage clearing process.
I hope that answers your question, I'm sure it might sound unnecessarily complicated but that's how I approach the game.
Right.. so even though you didn't even answer my question (and I know it's not a lot because I checked the database before asking) you still don't think there is any validity that someone who has played 50+ games approaches the game differently from someone who is new.
How many times have you even wolfed?
I'm not trying to pull a fast one on you. I'm not lying and I am a villager. Fors would feel more comfortable clearing me as a wolf than when he is a villager.
This is a natural instinct for most wolves and especially for certain players to me given my rep. I can see why you might not want to blindly accept this but you are focusing on the wrong things.
I read your case on CDL and I know you believed in it. I don't hunt the same way because I have seen a lot of lynches, and my criteria is very different.
How many times have you even wolfed?
I'm not trying to pull a fast one on you. I'm not lying and I am a villager. Fors would feel more comfortable clearing me as a wolf than when he is a villager.
This is a natural instinct for most wolves and especially for certain players to me given my rep. I can see why you might not want to blindly accept this but you are focusing on the wrong things.
I read your case on CDL and I know you believed in it. I don't hunt the same way because I have seen a lot of lynches, and my criteria is very different.
the problem with your thinking is your are locking yourself into narrow definitions so you don't need to think about it in depth
no one can ever be lock clear aside from very specific sets of circumstances, if at all - like a mod reveal
i mantain that fors interactions with me attests to me being a villager - a lot of the reasons are meta-related and based on my understanding of wolf physchology, also based on fors interactions with me in games when he is a villager
now i read fors for spew of other players besides me
for example you actually came up:
this is an intersting post he makes to you because it is both Unsolicited and talks about how he would wolf (when he is a wolf)
because of this set of circumstances it is much more likely he would adress a villager (and that you are a villager)
i think similar reasoning shows that he is far more likely to clear me as a villager a a wolf
are you with me?
no one can ever be lock clear aside from very specific sets of circumstances, if at all - like a mod reveal
i mantain that fors interactions with me attests to me being a villager - a lot of the reasons are meta-related and based on my understanding of wolf physchology, also based on fors interactions with me in games when he is a villager
now i read fors for spew of other players besides me
for example you actually came up:
this is an intersting post he makes to you because it is both Unsolicited and talks about how he would wolf (when he is a wolf)
because of this set of circumstances it is much more likely he would adress a villager (and that you are a villager)
i think similar reasoning shows that he is far more likely to clear me as a villager a a wolf
are you with me?
ehhh i did read when you made the case and i see your point in principle
isn't quite as cut a clear dry and interpretation for me, sort of like your case on CDL
i don't have boo as clear or anything but that post doesn't stand out to me
if boo was annoyed about nutshot barely posting and being modkilled i mean that should be villagery right?
isn't quite as cut a clear dry and interpretation for me, sort of like your case on CDL
i don't have boo as clear or anything but that post doesn't stand out to me
if boo was annoyed about nutshot barely posting and being modkilled i mean that should be villagery right?
Ash just because you make a case, and i don't respond to it specifically doesn't mean i'm not reading the thread
I do things my own way (if you haven't noticed) and I am very happy with my contributions and how the game is going so far.
So some kind of lame argument that I'm not jumping down boo's throat for some post that may not even accurately reflect the sentiment he was trying to type is just kind of missing the forest for the trees.
I am also spewed clear in about the largest way possible, and anyone who rereads me and binkles, plus interactions I had with other dead wolves there will be no doubt in their minds.
I do things my own way (if you haven't noticed) and I am very happy with my contributions and how the game is going so far.
So some kind of lame argument that I'm not jumping down boo's throat for some post that may not even accurately reflect the sentiment he was trying to type is just kind of missing the forest for the trees.
I am also spewed clear in about the largest way possible, and anyone who rereads me and binkles, plus interactions I had with other dead wolves there will be no doubt in their minds.
Look you want Boo to explain himself to you. I get it. I don't care.
I think I will do better focusing on other players, which for me right now means VMF and whoever else I think is appropriate after that.
But for the time being VMF is way wolfier than anyone else in the thread.
So if you want to push Boo fine, go ahead, but if I don't you need to respect that. Asking me to physchoanalyze Boo's intent (which you have all ready done) is only going to make me look wolfy for disagreeing for you.
I think I will do better focusing on other players, which for me right now means VMF and whoever else I think is appropriate after that.
But for the time being VMF is way wolfier than anyone else in the thread.
So if you want to push Boo fine, go ahead, but if I don't you need to respect that. Asking me to physchoanalyze Boo's intent (which you have all ready done) is only going to make me look wolfy for disagreeing for you.
Right..
Because no one in his right mind would ever think CDL was not a wolf for posting RIG THE GAME
Obviously, I should forget everything I know about werewolf and relearn based on your opinion. After all you wolfed once, I'm sure you know everything there is to know.
Because no one in his right mind would ever think CDL was not a wolf for posting RIG THE GAME
Obviously, I should forget everything I know about werewolf and relearn based on your opinion. After all you wolfed once, I'm sure you know everything there is to know.
Maybe you would. But the obligation of a seer is to make the best peek, and even if you don't believe that I'm clear my track record will show that I am very rarely mislynched as a villager.
For that reason I am strongly urging you to peek someone else.
If you peek me anyway it probably won't be the end of the world, but I believe I can clear myself.
Also I'm not a lady if you thought that.
For that reason I am strongly urging you to peek someone else.
If you peek me anyway it probably won't be the end of the world, but I believe I can clear myself.
Also I'm not a lady if you thought that.
I'm a villager. I would say there is probably a less than 10% chance of me getting lynched.
So yeah you could make it a 0% chance.
But there are going to be villagers who have a much greater chance of being lynched, and wolves who might live longer than they would if you peek them sooner.
So peek someone you are unsure of, and someone you think learning about would really help the village. Like I said don't advertise your exact peek as it can help wolves counter the value.
I don't think you really think I'm wolfy, I think you are just kind of annoyed that we are playing on different wavelengths.
So yeah you could make it a 0% chance.
But there are going to be villagers who have a much greater chance of being lynched, and wolves who might live longer than they would if you peek them sooner.
So peek someone you are unsure of, and someone you think learning about would really help the village. Like I said don't advertise your exact peek as it can help wolves counter the value.
I don't think you really think I'm wolfy, I think you are just kind of annoyed that we are playing on different wavelengths.
I'll say this again: wolves were >rand to be especially more utr than usual in a day with an outed wolf. it's hard to keep up with pretending to be gamesolvey when you can't get any mislynches. that is:
BJ
silman
richard tanner
are probably 3/3 in the outed woof category right now
BJ
silman
richard tanner
are probably 3/3 in the outed woof category right now
ash: this was my first post to you on the whole vyk thing:
ok ok ok
ash, i'm pretty damn ****ing sure you're a villager.
vyk has been right. A LOT. let's say for some reason he is a neutral and that's why he knows this (although I'm pretty sure prizes HAVE to be unblockable otherwise it's dull to announce the winner of those ITT, right?), he is still the most pro-villa player in the game so far. you've been wrong a lot, I'm probably wrong about a lot of stuff. we need to trust this guy to win the game IMO. seriously, at this point, I trust your role way more than I trust vyk's role, but I trust his insight and reads more than yours (or anyone else in this game). ignoring his posts is by far the most anti-village thing you could do right now and although it's not even close to what kruze did, it helps villages lose games in general.
ash, i'm pretty damn ****ing sure you're a villager.
vyk has been right. A LOT. let's say for some reason he is a neutral and that's why he knows this (although I'm pretty sure prizes HAVE to be unblockable otherwise it's dull to announce the winner of those ITT, right?), he is still the most pro-villa player in the game so far. you've been wrong a lot, I'm probably wrong about a lot of stuff. we need to trust this guy to win the game IMO. seriously, at this point, I trust your role way more than I trust vyk's role, but I trust his insight and reads more than yours (or anyone else in this game). ignoring his posts is by far the most anti-village thing you could do right now and although it's not even close to what kruze did, it helps villages lose games in general.
I'm pretty sure I already agreed that shooting Holdem was pretty AIDSy. However, in my defense, notice how as soon as he was gone, for the most part we got away from "let's all yell and insult each other" to "try and figure out who the wolves are"? That's not a coincidence. The Mike Singletary rant applies here:
Catching all the wolves is great, but again, let's not pretend you were anywhere near 100% right with your reads. And it is because neither you nor anyone else are ever going to be close to 100% with your reads that the below is actually important.
You are not nearly as bad about this as some others, but: the "I am right, just do what I say" method absolutely BLOWS for a multitude of reasons:
1. You are NOT always right. You are quite often wrong, even if that "often" is a hell of a lot less often than "bad" players.
2. Even if you ARE right in this specific instance, just saying "I'm right, shut up and listen" is terrible because it does nothing to assist your fellow villagers in figuring out if you are actually right this time, or if you're just leading them astray.
3. It also makes it impossible for those people to actually get better as WW players. If that's your (and this is a generic "your") goal, to withhold information so that you can continue to hold the "I'm better than you" card for future games, **** you. You're basically tanking win probability in the current game and doing a disservice to your teammates if you do that.
Catching all the wolves is great, but again, let's not pretend you were anywhere near 100% right with your reads. And it is because neither you nor anyone else are ever going to be close to 100% with your reads that the below is actually important.
You are not nearly as bad about this as some others, but: the "I am right, just do what I say" method absolutely BLOWS for a multitude of reasons:
1. You are NOT always right. You are quite often wrong, even if that "often" is a hell of a lot less often than "bad" players.
2. Even if you ARE right in this specific instance, just saying "I'm right, shut up and listen" is terrible because it does nothing to assist your fellow villagers in figuring out if you are actually right this time, or if you're just leading them astray.
3. It also makes it impossible for those people to actually get better as WW players. If that's your (and this is a generic "your") goal, to withhold information so that you can continue to hold the "I'm better than you" card for future games, **** you. You're basically tanking win probability in the current game and doing a disservice to your teammates if you do that.
Note that "seriously advised" is different than "being told what to do". Those are two different things. I was being told what to do, by a self-appointed village captain who could potentially have not been a villager at all (as you yourself concede). And even if he was modpeeked as a villager, that STILL doesn't mean he's always right.
Look, I got a ton of stuff wrong this game. Maybe that means I suck as a villager. Fine, I can handle that. But I'm never ever going to improve if the ONLY reasoning I get (and I contend it was) is "shut up and do this".
Look, I got a ton of stuff wrong this game. Maybe that means I suck as a villager. Fine, I can handle that. But I'm never ever going to improve if the ONLY reasoning I get (and I contend it was) is "shut up and do this".
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