Ok caught up the rest of the thread on my phone. Giga/devourer

giga

Before anyone asks which post makes me suspect giga and devourer, the answer is all of them

Then you're either bad or scum

And this is champions game, so :/

lots of villagers arguing imo

Traz

Giga

The whole thing looked like a null tell. I'm more interested in his vote record, and his participation record.

His vote record is quite sketchy, since he placed his vote long before giving any reasons behind it. His participation record is too busy to play, yet ever-present.

For now, I'm writing off his entire lean list as something he was forced to do to look like he was participating more, and I am not interested in picking it apart.

His lean lists will have more meaning behind them with the benefit of hindsight, after people flip, and after more votes have been cast. I could go through the entire player list and generate random leans on people right now, it wouldn't mean a whole lot, and frankly I'd feel foolish about telling people they needed to discuss my leans rather than my behavior. It just seems like a red herring.

Thing is, you're unlikely to convince me or anyone else if you refuse to address actual content.

It's indicative of a confirmation bias.

Mod note: This posting restriction will be lifted 2 hours before EOD (End of discussion / end of day). If you post more than 100 times while the posting restriction is still in effect, you will have 1 vote added to your tally for each post that you make.

I agree with pizzaguy on this, and will detail why in an hour or so when I get back to the barracks.

Okay, now I'm not trying to be an ass, so I apologize in advance, but I need to make a point about how it's irrelevant.

The following is a link containing "actual content". Pretend I wrote all of it, even though I didn't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II

I could now demand everyone address this "actual content" rather than why my posts or Captain Binkles posts are scummy or not. My point is that such content, while lengthy and informative to some, has no bearing, to me, on whether or not his behavior is or was scummy.

Null tells are a waste of time to discuss.

Am I wrong about that? Or do you frequently discuss null tells rather than townie or scum tells?

His lean list doesn't tell you anything at all about his actual alignment.

Why would I waste my time discussing null tells?

Why would I waste YOUR time discussing null tells?

Since it's a null tell, just like my posting of the above entirely unrelated wikipedia article, it changes my opinion of him not one iota, and I don't care to discuss it, as it is a red herring.

Is it possible I can find binkles scummy based on binkles behavior, and that the unrelated trivia he posted has no influence over that opinion?

Granted, his leans may mean something after several people have flipped town or scum, but right now, it means jack squat about his alignment.

Shrug, well you lost my vote.

My work here for the moment is done :P

I'm off to bed, gn friends

I demand you discuss the content of his memes! Otherwise you'll never convince me of anything in this game, etc.

Have a great night's sleep. See you soon.



Oh, and Binkles?

There's no content of memes, that's a false equivalence

He could have nailed the entire scumteam with insightful/deep comments, or he could be needlessly summarising events without opinions or insight

One would be a towntell, one would be a scumtell, but you're not giving yourself the opportunity to find out without addressing it at all, and writing it off as a general nulltell.

Just sayin.

Anstonio

No lurking for you, Tony.

Okay. So.

I think that Askthepizzaguy has explained his stance on not discussing the contents of the list clearly and well, but just to repeat the same thing he said in different words, he is telling you that since either scum or town could and, indeed, in this situation would write such a list, and include more-or-less the same content (with a few exceptions that I'll get into in a moment), the contents of the list should only be discussed in the context of making or breaking a case against one of the players he has named, and have no value in a discussion on his own alignment.

Now, I'll look into the list from my perspective regardless of the above, as an excuse to mention some of the exceptions. See, when town is constructing a list, they'll generally have /less names/ on it because they do not bother writing about people they do not have a read on. Scum often finds the idea of leaving people out a dangerous scum-tell. Town also has more /scum-suspicions/ as opposed to town-reads, because that's what townies are looking for - any 'this post is reading town' observations are incidental, while scumhunting townies search for and collect things that read scum. Scum tends to write more about people whom they read as town, because that's relatively safe, allows them space to insert one or two of their friends and makes the town people that they read as town to view their entire analysis more favourably. Scum picks /names/ to put on the list, then looks over the thread about what they can say about that person. Town picks /suspicions/ they have about people and then looks over the names that come up that way to add analysis on top of the existing suspicion.

Scum lists generally have scum names on both ends, often favouring pointing bad guys out as 'slightly scummy', not as the 'most scummy' votetarget, but they rarely have more than 1-2 wolves on the 'not scummy' part of the list. Even if they do, there's usually some get-out-of-analysis-free card like 'but of course *player* is smart and could just be playing us' in the end. Mostly, they like to not include most of the wolves on the list at all. If possible - leaving out a name that has come up in discussion or is active is not something scum do.

Let's look at that list from this perspective. I am not going deep into the reads themselves, because frankly they're vapid and unimportant - the sort of things that anyone could say about anyone. I'm looking at the structure.

Here's one of those phrases I mentioned. Not much by itself, but town rarely does this.

Villagery people he mentioned:
Nana
Weareking
TaylorFitz
Mastin2
Askthepizzaguy
Marvellosity

Six people. Most of these are ones that either the thread generally agrees on or ones that have been discussed but the discussion has let up. Nothing radical or thought-provoking in here, or on this entire list really. Of course, that might be because the general thread direction is a good one, given that we're all experienced players here, but it's something to keep in mind. This list is playing safe.

Dunno/Meh:
I'll group these together, as there's not much appreciable difference. If CB is scum, then I would expect this region to be a fruitful place to scan for more scum.

Soah
AngryPidgeon
Athexx
Verbal
DrippingGoofball
Fank009
Murska

Seven people. To me this looks like names, plus an additional something to say about them that generally means not much at all, or in Soah's case /is/ nothing at all.

Wolfy:
Giga13
Cyan

Two people. Very few - but almost immediately after his post he corrects himself and adds two more people here. Verbal, and myself. These are both people that others have found suspicious and still do at the time of posting this list. Safe picks, again. /If/ CB is scum, I bet one of these two is as well, if not both. But, again, in the end he mentions that people in the Meh list are more interesting than the ones here, which could be construed as an attempt to drive attention and focus elsewhere.

The two people 'dropped to wolfy' made me look again at his reasoning on Verbal. I'm biased and unable to really evaluate the reasoning on myself, other than saying that I'm a townie so it's wrong either by design or by accident. But the case against Verbal seems really thin. This actually makes me suspect that Verbal might just be scum with CB, as it looks like he /first/ wanted Verbal's name in a specific part of the list and /then/ went to look for a reason to put it there. That's the sort of thing that makes readlists ping on my radar and makes me read them carefully.

"However Anstonio should be in the meh/wolfy category I think" in the next post. Why? And if so, why was he not there? Leaving names out of the list seems to be worth additional explanation in several points. I think that scum would care more about this sort of thing than town.


Note that this was just looking at the list. The reasoning Askthepizzaguy gave about why captain binkles was scummy before and especially CB's response afterwards (continually pointing towards the list and trying not to address the perfectly valid points that /actually/ relate to the topic of him being or not being scum) still exist independently and point towards bad guy.


A cultural note. I've been slightly thrown off by the seemingly pervading culture that simply stating "I find *person* or *post* suspicious" to be worth much at all, as opposed to actual votes or at least FoSing. To me, these are the sorts of words that everyone says about most everything constantly, and they don't register as of much value. But these things differ amongst players, of course.

Vote: captain binkles

Votes from post 36 to post 267
Night in 1 day 08:00:56
---

Votes	Lynch	Voters
3	captain binkles	Murska (7), Askthepizzaguy (40), soah (11)
3	Anstonio	Nana7 (26), marvellosity (21), weareking (28)
3	soah	Giga13 (7), Athexx (2), TaylorFitz (14)
3	fank009	Anstonio (1), mastin2 (14), MNOWAX (1)
2	Giga13	captain binkles (22), traz (4)
2	TaylorFitz	DrippingGoofball (5), fank009 (8)
1	Nana7	AngryPidgeon (7)
8	not voting	Verbal32 (2), Valar Morghulis (0), TheMango (0), Silkku (0), Infidel_PA (0), Foolishness (0), Cyan (1), chrja (0)
1	Error	Devourer (3)

Last post by Murska is very pro town to me.

Top suspects are Nana & Taylor. Taylor for the weird play mixed with the perfect amount of WIFOM, and Nana for 2 reasons:

1. Buddying (snuggling) up to more than 1 player, and
2. Defending every mention of her name in a manner that hints towards suspicion on her, aka overdefending.

Vote: Nana

Something Mastin said pinged for me as well, but I'll have to look back for it...

That Murska post is what I was looking for from Pizza.

Still not looking to lynch Binkles ahead of people like Giga (not Guru as I said earlier, no idea where that came from) and Anstonio.

Pretty curious what soah is going to come up with given his rhetoric in the pre-game thread.

Oh boy. Now my problem with this many people is that we have nearly 300 posts but we are really just frankly in RVS. I think we really need to look back and check out Askthepizzaguy, and any one who as posted quite a lot ( If I'm counting right he has posted 62 times out of 267, I think that is a little excessive IMO ). Oh, also I don't trust DrippingGoofball, we played a while back when I was on MS.

Shakespeare once told us "We know what we are, but know not what we may be", its a good analogy for this game. We know ourselves, but we don't know what actions we will take will help out the town. I plan on going through my reads with a fine toothed comb and post on my thoughts later today.

Meh, I see that thread as just shooting the **** and a null tell of what to expect. Some might have tried to lay false trails. I'm ignoring that thread and everything in the bios as well. No meta reads - no trending. Just this thread and folks' play within it.

EBWDP I must have miscounted. 40 posts out of 267 isn't as horrible as 62.

RVS?