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Old 08-24-2013, 06:04 PM   #126
TooCuriousso1
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Re: PokerStars Heads Up Lobby Changes: Feedback Requested

fwiw i play just about as many reg matches as almost any1 itt and i keep $0 on the only site that has HU zoom. i cashed out when they did that. hated it. and zoom is just so much inferior to a proper soft/tierd koth setup imo.
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Old 08-24-2013, 06:09 PM   #127
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Re: PokerStars Heads Up Lobby Changes: Feedback Requested

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Originally Posted by TooCuriousso1 View Post
fwiw i play just about as many reg matches as almost any1 itt and i keep $0 on the only site that has HU zoom. i cashed out when they did that. hated it. and zoom is just so much inferior to a proper soft/tierd koth setup imo.
+1, what flaws can u see in my system though?

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Old 08-24-2013, 08:51 PM   #128
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Re: PokerStars Heads Up Lobby Changes: Feedback Requested

+1 to the idea that Stars should actually be probing the folks that make deposits and are the real customers. Explain clearly that these lobby changes will 1. make the lobby look a lot better, 2. give them way tougher opposition, 3. give them a match a little faster/easier than they currently do. Those are the real effects of these changes to them. Explain the lobby could be cleaned up easily enough in other ways. If they like it, so be it, then cater to them. I expect them to like the old system better as long as you don't sugar coat/ignore point. There is after all going to be a very real difference in the skill level of their opposition.

Party caters to these casual players by putting them against other casual players. Party did this in the name of making the experience more fun for the recreational player. Your policy change here is doing 100% the opposite of that and pits the best against the very worst. They will have access to nobody but the very best. Maybe you don't realize that? I feel like a very vocal minority of poker pros are making as best a case they can to get exclusive access to fish and you're really listening to them a lot. You're not fully considering the other side's perspective that well here.
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Old 08-24-2013, 09:44 PM   #129
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Re: PokerStars Heads Up Lobby Changes: Feedback Requested

It is being overblown how much worse off the recreational players will be having to play the top regulars. It's not like a -25bb/100 recreational player is now going to be a -50bb/100 player having to play the top regulars. The top regulars play the same ABC game as the bumhunters when playing a fish. Any difference in how quick the fish lose will be made up with the increased action for PS.
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Old 08-24-2013, 10:12 PM   #130
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Re: PokerStars Heads Up Lobby Changes: Feedback Requested

Number 1 the worst proposition ever.80% recreational players hit and runners and they also select the game.Thats also the main reason why they play hu cash and not sng.
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Old 08-25-2013, 01:53 AM   #131
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Re: PokerStars Heads Up Lobby Changes: Feedback Requested

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It is being overblown how much worse off the recreational players will be having to play the top regulars. It's not like a -25bb/100 recreational player is now going to be a -50bb/100 player having to play the top regulars. The top regulars play the same ABC game as the bumhunters when playing a fish. Any difference in how quick the fish lose will be made up with the increased action for PS.
how have you reached this conclusion?
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Old 08-25-2013, 02:02 AM   #132
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Re: PokerStars Heads Up Lobby Changes: Feedback Requested

either option means i dont play at stars anymore
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Old 08-25-2013, 04:21 AM   #133
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Re: PokerStars Heads Up Lobby Changes: Feedback Requested

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Originally Posted by Pkrjker View Post
Hi Nick.

I have always thought the heads up lobby on stars was the best and don't understand where this need to improve has come from. maybe due to the top 0.5% of players who's option is massively respected don't benefit from current system. Or the view from a recreational player's point of view, of which i wouldn't no honestly how most would view the current system, probably little confusing would be my first guess.
Well said!
For the last few years I dont see any dramatical changes in HU lobby at least at the low stakes, still same 50 tables are opened at nl50 in the morning hours and about 50% of them are played, approximately twice more tables during the peak hours... For nl100 the proportion of waited/played tables is obviously not that good but I dont see it getting better or worse, it remains the same. For sure, there is some 0,5% group of players at the forum that wanna make a "global problem" out of nothing in order to extract more $$$... And unfortunately, stars listens to them alot...
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Old 08-25-2013, 05:10 AM   #134
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Re: PokerStars Heads Up Lobby Changes: Feedback Requested

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The top regulars play the same ABC game as the bumhunters when playing a fish.
This is just not true at all. Where I live there are a few guys that fit the lottery type regular and they are quite bad with a bad win rate. This is true even though they only play very bad players. One time I was watching one of these guys and I noticed *HUGE* leaks in his game... like really big/obvious leaks that will kill his win rate. For example, raise/folding and raise/calling the exact same range against a guy 3 betting 5% as a guy 3 betting 50%+. He was still folding to 3 bets the "solid" 65% of the time in both cases.

A great player will start doing junk like adjusting bet sizing/etc very exploitively against a bad player. Load up some games of great players playing fish and watch for yourself. Watch a video where Phil Galfond plays fish and tell me if you actually believe what you're saying here.

Heck you can PTR bum hunters on various sites still and you will see quickly that even though they only play the worse of the worst they have a pretty bad win rate. Kaby did a loose "study" on this and showed us that indeed bum hunters are likely to win a lot smaller of a win rate. Anyway I don't really have to convince you. Stars has that data and I am sure they can see that this idea is true.
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Old 08-25-2013, 07:09 AM   #135
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Re: PokerStars Heads Up Lobby Changes: Feedback Requested

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Originally Posted by Kardnel View Post
The current system is transparent. Fish see a million people sitting and likely realize that all those people want to play them. If you showed a random 3 games per stake - with a small button to expand to see the whole list - it would still be transparent. That cleans up the lobby clutter.

There is *NOTHING* transparent about either of the solutions you've outlined. Instead of fish joining a random player on the medium to best spectrum, they will instead be put up against the very best players in the world automatically. They won't realize that this is going on, however, because they just want to play the game and don't think about much else. Your suggested systems are misleading.
this
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Old 08-25-2013, 07:43 AM   #136
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It would be nice if stars would come in and give their reasons against just capping the tables and numbering them. Maybe it's because the 20th best reg couldn't play the 21st best reg? A side battle arena or something would easily solve that though. It seems by far the most popular and logical option.
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Old 08-25-2013, 08:40 AM   #137
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Re: PokerStars Heads Up Lobby Changes: Feedback Requested

Numbering tables seem like a bad idea, the regs know their place in the lobby. No point in telling everybody else, it might cause the number 20 to get more action than the number 1.
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Old 08-25-2013, 08:43 AM   #138
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Re: PokerStars Heads Up Lobby Changes: Feedback Requested

I'm wondering who are the players who helped ps to arrange this changes...

isn't it easier to talk to people with brain and go from there (kanu,tc,partygirlUK...)
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Old 08-25-2013, 09:23 AM   #139
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Re: PokerStars Heads Up Lobby Changes: Feedback Requested

Adding HU chat would allow regs to quickly find each other when they want to play other regs. Right now a common complaint is that regs simply cannot find action against *anyone*. So the problem must be that these people just can't find each other out of a huge lobby. They could say, "LF 4 table match X stake, come to table Y" and play each other quickly and easily. That solves another problem that gets talked about when people argue against the current lobby system.

1. People finding easy matches via chat instead of wading through several tables
2. Only displaying X tables in the lobby with an expand button to get rid of clutter

That eliminates the two actual problems with the HU lobby right now. That completes the task without arbitrary money redistribution.
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Old 08-25-2013, 09:48 AM   #140
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Re: PokerStars Heads Up Lobby Changes: Feedback Requested

really just cap the number of tables and show all tables random to anyone meaning every1 could get action
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Old 08-25-2013, 10:17 AM   #141
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Re: PokerStars Heads Up Lobby Changes: Feedback Requested

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kardnel View Post
Adding HU chat would allow regs to quickly find each other when they want to play other regs. Right now a common complaint is that regs simply cannot find action against *anyone*. So the problem must be that these people just can't find each other out of a huge lobby. They could say, "LF 4 table match X stake, come to table Y" and play each other quickly and easily. That solves another problem that gets talked about when people argue against the current lobby system.

1. People finding easy matches via chat instead of wading through several tables
2. Only displaying X tables in the lobby with an expand button to get rid of clutter

That eliminates the two actual problems with the HU lobby right now. That completes the task without arbitrary money redistribution.
preferably this or soft koth, none of those first 2 options jesus
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Old 08-25-2013, 10:44 AM   #142
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Re: PokerStars Heads Up Lobby Changes: Feedback Requested

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Also, (and flame away guys ) I'm baffled by the fact that weak regs' incentives even get talked about. Some number of regs is desirable for recs to have game selection and liquidity, on top of that they're superfluous. If you're a weak reg, just move down until you're a strong reg. That's how it works at 6max, and I don't see how the hu lobby necessitates anything different beyond the fact that weak regs sitting huge stakes is the status quo. It's like saying we're neglecting $1/$2 6max regs' rights by not giving them enough soft $2/$4 games to play- it makes no sense!
the idea is that

1) top regs win more vs fish than weaker regs, so being able to play a weaker reg sometimes is more enjoyment for the fish (because he wins more often) and makes him more likely to redeposit. some don't agree with top regs winning more vs fish, i do

2) at 25/50 for example, if someone wants to take a shot at 25/50, maybe he should be able to do that vs someone that's not top 5 in the world. in the last few months at least one person started battling out 25/50 vs the second tier of regs, and then later he started playing jungle etc. maybe he never takes the shot if his only choice is playing vs jungle
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Old 08-25-2013, 10:46 AM   #143
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Re: PokerStars Heads Up Lobby Changes: Feedback Requested

btw what's the argument for both more available tables at lower stakes and only allowed to sit 3 stakes?

i don't see any reason why you should only get to sit 3 stakes... but if you can only sit 3 why do you need tons of tables at 2/4?
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Old 08-25-2013, 10:52 AM   #144
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Re: PokerStars Heads Up Lobby Changes: Feedback Requested

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Originally Posted by Kardnel View Post
+1 to the idea that Stars should actually be probing the folks that make deposits and are the real customers. Explain clearly that these lobby changes will 1. make the lobby look a lot better, 2. give them way tougher opposition, 3. give them a match a little faster/easier than they currently do. Those are the real effects of these changes to them. Explain the lobby could be cleaned up easily enough in other ways. If they like it, so be it, then cater to them. I expect them to like the old system better as long as you don't sugar coat/ignore point. There is after all going to be a very real difference in the skill level of their opposition.

Party caters to these casual players by putting them against other casual players. Party did this in the name of making the experience more fun for the recreational player. Your policy change here is doing 100% the opposite of that and pits the best against the very worst. They will have access to nobody but the very best. Maybe you don't realize that? I feel like a very vocal minority of poker pros are making as best a case they can to get exclusive access to fish and you're really listening to them a lot. You're not fully considering the other side's perspective that well here.
this needs to be kept in mind yeah, i do think some more incentive for action would benefit stars in more rake, but in the end the net losers drive everything so #1 concern is not driving them away. which means for example a softer koth is better than a stricter one when in doubt
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Old 08-25-2013, 11:39 AM   #145
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Re: PokerStars Heads Up Lobby Changes: Feedback Requested

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Originally Posted by dotbum View Post
how have you reached this conclusion?
It is based on my experiences. When I first started learning HUPLO I just bumhunted it. I immediately had a high win rate. I now consider myself to be one of the top regulars at my stakes. I still have a high win rate vs. fish. I'm sure I have a better win rate vs. them now than I did before, but I don't think it is a massive difference.
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Old 08-25-2013, 11:44 AM   #146
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Re: PokerStars Heads Up Lobby Changes: Feedback Requested

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Originally Posted by Kardnel View Post
This is just not true at all. Where I live there are a few guys that fit the lottery type regular and they are quite bad with a bad win rate. This is true even though they only play very bad players. One time I was watching one of these guys and I noticed *HUGE* leaks in his game... like really big/obvious leaks that will kill his win rate. For example, raise/folding and raise/calling the exact same range against a guy 3 betting 5% as a guy 3 betting 50%+. He was still folding to 3 bets the "solid" 65% of the time in both cases.

A great player will start doing junk like adjusting bet sizing/etc very exploitively against a bad player. Load up some games of great players playing fish and watch for yourself. Watch a video where Phil Galfond plays fish and tell me if you actually believe what you're saying here.

Heck you can PTR bum hunters on various sites still and you will see quickly that even though they only play the worse of the worst they have a pretty bad win rate. Kaby did a loose "study" on this and showed us that indeed bum hunters are likely to win a lot smaller of a win rate. Anyway I don't really have to convince you. Stars has that data and I am sure they can see that this idea is true.
I am speaking in general terms. Sure there are bumhunters out there who are pretty bad, and fish would be much better off playing them. But in general, most bumhunters are pretty good at beating fish.
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Old 08-25-2013, 12:06 PM   #147
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Re: PokerStars Heads Up Lobby Changes: Feedback Requested

Quote:
Originally Posted by kabyz View Post
2) at 25/50 for example, if someone wants to take a shot at 25/50, maybe he should be able to do that vs someone that's not top 5 in the world. in the last few months at least one person started battling out 25/50 vs the second tier of regs, and then later he started playing jungle etc. maybe he never takes the shot if his only choice is playing vs jungle
+1

I think Kanu's idea of flexible table amounts addresses this to some extent. The system should restrict bumhunting but not so much that players have a huge step up whenever they want to play higher stakes. This is especially true at 10/20+.

I wonder if Stars has given some thoughts about implementing a set of incentives for players who are willing to challenge themselves vs other regulars. More FPPs, a ladder system, etc.. especially at lower stakes where rake makes it a less profitable endeavor, these sort of incentives could push more players to seek tougher competition more often because they will have some "padding" from the extra benefits they receive, regardless of results.
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Old 08-25-2013, 01:39 PM   #148
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Re: PokerStars Heads Up Lobby Changes: Feedback Requested

I really wish nick would come on and comment on some of these ideas.

A heads up chat lobby is seems like a great idea for reg on reg action.

And just showing a certain amount of tables per stake where every player sees different tables will fix the problem of lobby clutter.

Please get your point of view from heads up recreational players not just a select few players with huge self interests in mind.
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Old 08-25-2013, 02:19 PM   #149
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Re: PokerStars Heads Up Lobby Changes: Feedback Requested

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Originally Posted by Stake Monster View Post
+1

I think Kanu's idea of flexible table amounts addresses this to some extent. The system should restrict bumhunting but not so much that players have a huge step up whenever they want to play higher stakes. This is especially true at 10/20+.

I wonder if Stars has given some thoughts about implementing a set of incentives for players who are willing to challenge themselves vs other regulars. More FPPs, a ladder system, etc.. especially at lower stakes where rake makes it a less profitable endeavor, these sort of incentives could push more players to seek tougher competition more often because they will have some "padding" from the extra benefits they receive, regardless of results.
Kanu's idea is nice, but implementation of it is not really simple as I explained it earlier imho.
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Old 08-25-2013, 04:02 PM   #150
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Re: PokerStars Heads Up Lobby Changes: Feedback Requested

I would prefer Kanu's option or just leave as it is. Also make it easier to add more tables / search reg action
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