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Heads Up NL Discussion of heads up NL Texas Hold'em cash games

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Old 08-20-2009, 06:44 PM   #1
cftw
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NL2k -- nasty spot where all options suck

Villain is relatively unknown, kinda splashy pre but not super aggro.

I pick up A3hh and pop it to 60.
Villain 3-bets to 220.
I flat.

579ss flop

Villain checks
I bet 275, villain calls.

Turn As

Villain leads 575...


I hate every option.
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Old 08-20-2009, 06:48 PM   #2
DopeyMcDope
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Re: NL2k -- nasty spot where all options suck

I think you need to post stack sizes here first.
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Old 08-20-2009, 06:49 PM   #3
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Re: NL2k -- nasty spot where all options suck

Folding pre makes this a lot easier.
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Old 08-20-2009, 06:53 PM   #4
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Re: NL2k -- nasty spot where all options suck

Shoving is probably the option I hate the least, but ya they all suck. I mean wouldn't he c/r a FD+1 or 2 overcards here? Probably just trying to rep the ultimate scarecard, probably has a lot of 8xKs/8xQs, etc.
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Old 08-20-2009, 06:55 PM   #5
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Re: NL2k -- nasty spot where all options suck

urgh spot

what about checking flop? if he checking to c/f we can just barrel alot of turns and rivers

like villian never/very rarely has air here so its how often he spazzing with like 88s/66s/89s etc.. that he didnt C-bet for some reason

also i think its very close between calling/folding

shoving seems bad
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Old 08-20-2009, 06:55 PM   #6
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Re: NL2k -- nasty spot where all options suck

call and call any non spade river...if i had to choose
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Old 08-20-2009, 06:59 PM   #7
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Re: NL2k -- nasty spot where all options suck

i agree that you should fold pre if we're 100bb deep and don't have many reads.

on the turn, i can't imagine doing anything that isn't calling. He can def have random JT, 56, 67 type hands that see the As and decide to lead and win the pot right there.
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Old 08-20-2009, 07:10 PM   #8
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Re: NL2k -- nasty spot where all options suck

folding pre is preference.

I have A3hh 108 bb deep.
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Old 08-20-2009, 07:13 PM   #9
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Re: NL2k -- nasty spot where all options suck

I certainly call at the table. I think shoving is by the worst option.
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Old 08-20-2009, 07:34 PM   #10
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Re: NL2k -- nasty spot where all options suck

I really don't think folding pre is preference unless dude is just 3betting like mad, but as you say he's not super aggro. I mean the title of this thread is "nasty spot". I'm really just not sure how you can profitably play A3s in a 3bet pot against an unknown or a really really good player either for that matter.
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Old 08-20-2009, 07:50 PM   #11
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Re: NL2k -- nasty spot where all options suck

Preflop seems neither that good nor that bad. It just kinda is what it is.

Idk how I feel about the flop bet, which means it's probably whatever. On the turn I don't really see how we're ever good, but I probably call out of irritation.
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Old 08-20-2009, 08:10 PM   #12
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Re: NL2k -- nasty spot where all options suck

i would fold pf because we don't have reads and are just 108bbs deep. on flop, i think its a standard bet because this a flop where villains usually c/f on 3bet pots, when they check. on turn i call, but not too happy about it. obv shove is worst option by far.
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Old 08-20-2009, 08:56 PM   #13
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Re: NL2k -- nasty spot where all options suck

pretty sure i fold cause we're relying on our opponent both being retarded and also avoiding half the deck.
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Old 08-20-2009, 09:27 PM   #14
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Re: NL2k -- nasty spot where all options suck

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Originally Posted by MasterLJ View Post
I really don't think folding pre is preference unless dude is just 3betting like mad, but as you say he's not super aggro. I mean the title of this thread is "nasty spot". I'm really just not sure how you can profitably play A3s in a 3bet pot against an unknown or a really really good player either for that matter.
it is preference, and you can play it profitably in position. having A3hh and having other Axhh put us in virtually the same spot. obviously we'd like to have AJo here but pf is std. and i don't think it's worth discussing
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Old 08-20-2009, 09:28 PM   #15
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Re: NL2k -- nasty spot where all options suck

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Originally Posted by Barewire View Post
pretty sure i fold cause we're relying on our opponent both being retarded and also avoiding half the deck.
so what exactly are you continuing here with if we fold on one of the best turns for our hand? just AJo+?
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Old 08-20-2009, 09:28 PM   #16
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Re: NL2k -- nasty spot where all options suck

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Originally Posted by urubu111 View Post
i would fold pf because we don't have reads and are just 108bbs deep. on flop, i think its a standard bet because this a flop where villains usually c/f on 3bet pots, when they check. on turn i call, but not too happy about it. obv shove is worst option by far.

it's not obvious at all that shoving is the worst option
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Old 08-20-2009, 09:35 PM   #17
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Re: NL2k -- nasty spot where all options suck

This debate is pretty easy to settle if you have HM... just go into Preflop cards and filter A3s, 100BBs effective and Call 3 bet... if you're average profit per hand under those conditions is greater than -3bbs then you can make a profit defending with it. If it's significantly less then you're losing money. I'll be the first to concede this sample size is small but I defer to the limon theory that people often ignore bad decisions on previous streets as the culprit for tough decisions on latter streets. But yeah some of us have ranges that are AJo+ in this spot for 100BBs and thus have no difficult decisions.
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Old 08-20-2009, 09:38 PM   #18
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Re: NL2k -- nasty spot where all options suck

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Originally Posted by MasterLJ View Post
This debate is pretty easy to settle if you have HM... just go into Preflop cards and filter A3s, 100BBs effective and Call 3 bet... if you're average profit per hand under those conditions is greater than -3bbs then you can make a profit defending with it. If it's significantly less then you're losing money. I'll be the first to concede this sample size is small but I defer to the limon theory that people often ignore bad decisions on previous streets as the culprit for tough decisions on latter streets. But yeah some of us have ranges that are AJo+ in this spot for 100BBs and thus have no difficult decisions.

I don't want to discuss pf because it's been discussed to death and most good players I've talked to say it's fine and standard.

Also, nobody's range in this spot is "AJo+". That's just ignorant and blatantly false.
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Old 08-20-2009, 09:39 PM   #19
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Re: NL2k -- nasty spot where all options suck

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Originally Posted by cftw View Post
it is preference, and you can play it profitably in position. having A3hh and having other Axhh put us in virtually the same spot. obviously we'd like to have AJo here but pf is std. and i don't think it's worth discussing
i think all Ax hands here are equally bad, not sure he has anything inbetween A3 and AJ in his range. obviously we have Ax very rarely in this spot, so i'm not sure why you're concerned about folding on the best card for an incredibly small % of our flop bet range?
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Old 08-20-2009, 09:41 PM   #20
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Re: NL2k -- nasty spot where all options suck

So what do you guys do here w/ TT-KK? Just fold that too?
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Old 08-20-2009, 09:41 PM   #21
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Re: NL2k -- nasty spot where all options suck

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I don't want to discuss pf because it's been discussed to death and most good players I've talked to say it's fine and standard.

Also, nobody's range in this spot is "AJo+". That's just ignorant and blatantly false.
I meant it that as Hero you can put yourself in the spot to where the worst hand you have here IS the AJo+ (probably AT+ more realistically) if you are in the habit of folding A-rag to 3bets for 100BB which I think is a good habit to be in. Tough decision goes buh-bye
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Old 08-20-2009, 09:43 PM   #22
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Re: NL2k -- nasty spot where all options suck

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I meant it that as Hero you can put yourself in the spot to where the worst hand you have here IS the AJo+ (probably AT+ more realistically) if you are in the habit of folding A-rag to 3bets for 100BB which I think is a good habit to be in. Tough decision goes buh-bye

Uh...you do realize overpairs are in your range on the flop? As are top pairs etc.? Nobody's range is AJo+? By your logic we should fold TT pre too because we'd be in this spot.
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Old 08-20-2009, 09:45 PM   #23
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Re: NL2k -- nasty spot where all options suck

I guess I'm not communicating clearly... your range of aces and aces alone here can be AT+ and never A3. I thought we agreed this is a trivial hand with AJ but only hard because you have A3 and not AJ. Of course we could have KK here and that's a different discussion entirely I'm just talking about why preflop does matter and strictly within the set of hands that constitute our range, those that contain an ace.
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Old 08-20-2009, 09:48 PM   #24
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Re: NL2k -- nasty spot where all options suck

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Originally Posted by MasterLJ View Post
I guess I'm not communicating clearly... your range of aces and aces alone here can be AT+ and never A3. I thought we agreed this is a trivial hand with AJ but only hard because you have A3 and not AJ. Of course we could have KK here and that's a different discussion entirely I'm just talking about why preflop does matter and strictly within the set of hands that constitute our range, those that contain an ace.

our hand essentially = TT-KK when we bet flop, so I think it's pretty much the same discussion. The hand itself w/ AJ instead of A3 picks up some equity, but I actually don't believe it changes *that* much.

After thinking about my hand and discussing it, I think I have a pretty good idea of what I should do (even though i'm not a big fan of it).

And it does not involve folding pre .
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Old 08-20-2009, 09:51 PM   #25
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Re: NL2k -- nasty spot where all options suck

Spades aren't really a concern, and I don't think he turns 67/89 into a bluff on the turn... I also have a really hard time thinking AK/AQ check/calls that flop texture so i think calling is best. I definitely like shoving if villain isn't braindead.
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