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HU 140BB vs strong thinking player AK TPTK OTF HU 140BB vs strong thinking player AK TPTK OTF

09-11-2015 , 11:13 PM
Heads up vs a good thinking player who is not scared to make big bluffs or calls. You have 140bb and he covers.

You are BB with AK. He makes it 3x and you make it 3x his raise. Pot is 18bb
Flop is K 10 9 You lead 14bb. He raises to 37bb. What's your play?
__________________________________________________ _____________

I know that you don't beat anything for value but isn't folding extremely exploitable?
That's my problem with folding in this spot. If you fold your hand here the guy will run over you with a forklift.
But shoving is also bad and calling is the worst.
HU 140BB vs strong thinking player AK TPTK OTF Quote
09-12-2015 , 05:12 AM
Calling is very rarely the worst option by a meaningful amount. It's usually either the best or second-best option. Preference orders of "fold > shove >> call" or "shove > fold >> call" basically won't happen (unless villain does ******ed things like raise/folding two pair). If villain is not bluffing enough, then shoving is worse than calling (and you should fold ofc). If villain is bluffing enough, then both calling and shoving (regardless of their order) are better than folding.

Anyway, the logic after the underscore row is backwards, I think. If you think that "shoving is also bad and calling is the worst" then you should clearly make an exploitative fold or something. Exploitability is a misunderstood and misused concept too; unless you're playing some version of poker where people get to see your hole cards after every hand, he won't immediately know you're folding this to a raise. Either way I'd call folding slightly exploitable, not extremely exploitable -- AK w/o a bdfd should be a near-threshold-ish bluffcatcher.

Last edited by Rei Ayanami; 09-12-2015 at 05:25 AM.
HU 140BB vs strong thinking player AK TPTK OTF Quote
09-12-2015 , 08:57 AM
Checking flop is not a bad option. On a lot of run outs u have to check anyway w/o backdoor fd.

Bet is obv fine, but you usually can't reraise flop here (think we are too deep for that) so u can decide if he is bluffing enough and call(your hand is decent bluffcatcher as u don't block any of his flop bluffing range outside of a rare Ad8s bluff, and obv with the K u block his 2ps).
HU 140BB vs strong thinking player AK TPTK OTF Quote
09-12-2015 , 08:59 AM
You run good , get rei on first post, also agree with watergun, i like check on this one ,without a backdoor flushdraw we wont be happy to bet turn that often

Or size like a russian.
HU 140BB vs strong thinking player AK TPTK OTF Quote
09-12-2015 , 10:29 PM
he does weird sh** like raise flop, (have you seen him raise flop for showdown purposes on future streets)? as played ,call/call, if turn gets checked hood/call river ftw.
HU 140BB vs strong thinking player AK TPTK OTF Quote
09-14-2015 , 05:30 AM
3b bigger preflop especially while deep.

AK not a strong hand on this board. Here is a reasonable continuing range for him to have on this board:

Equity Win Tie
BU 54.27% 54.11% 0.15% AdKd
SB 45.73% 45.58% 0.15% JJ-99, K2s+, Q5s+, J9s+, T9s, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o

He is also somewhat likely to 4b JJ but probably will not 4b TT while this deep, so this kind of skews things in your favor. On the other hand, I am probably missing a few combos of stuff like 97s w/ bdfd that likely call flop.

Having a backdoor flush draw helps you a reasonable amount and I might bet that for value instead with the extra 2.5%. Without the BDFD I think you should check.

If you think he is quite floaty then I guess bet anyway, if you think he calls a hand like AQ AJ. But he probably won't do that on this board imo without at least having a backdoor flush draw himself and even still probably not (this is a board he doesn't have to worry about overfolding flop much but rather overfolding a lot of non-straight run offs anyway with pair + draws... and adding AJ AQ just compounds that problem).

Straightish boards favor the guy in position moreso than other ones and deciding to value bet should reflect that. For example, he could easily start bluffing you with K2 on the J or Q turns. And he'd be well balanced while doing so even if he bluffs a ton.

You gain a lot of information when you check and he checks - now you have actually solid value bluffs on lots of turns. Whereas when you bet you don't really gain much information at all. If it goes check check and the 2c rolls off well now you can be pretty sure about having the best hand. If you bet you gain no real information. Some guys will just call stuff that you're losing to and others raise it and neither play will really tell you much.

As played I would fold or call depending on what he does on future streets. You say the guy is capable of running bluffs and that means you can expect a turn bet a lot of the time. This is bad for you when he does it unless hes a total maniac, which you have not described him as being. I don't think just folding to the raise here is a bad option at all. Plus just general experience of playing a ton of hands has taught me that this isn't a board that guys are going to raise bluff much at all.

Something else to consider is just overall ranges here. Who's range does this board actually hit harder? You don't 3b a hand like QJ usually but he definitely calls it. That one hand alone completely skews who this board favors and as a general game plan you should be checking flops/turns/rivers that favor your opponents range more than your own. On top of the monster that QJ is (16 nut combos) he has a bunch of two pairs way more often than you (T9, K9, KT) where you might have a few suited combos but he likely has all of the off suit combos. You can't expect him to fold K9 to a 3x 3b while deep like this. So if your game plan is to check this board which hits him a lot harder, it is sure nice to have some actually strongish hands in that range that can call.

TLDR: 3b bigger preflop because you're deep. Check the flop. Fold to the raise unless you think he is a one and done type bluffer in this spot (hes not and probably is not bluffing, either).

Last edited by Kardnel; 09-14-2015 at 05:42 AM.
HU 140BB vs strong thinking player AK TPTK OTF Quote
09-14-2015 , 05:54 AM
Also the above advice can easily be ignored vs a fish, this is based on you calling the guy a good thinking player. Against a fish don't think to much and just triple for value.
HU 140BB vs strong thinking player AK TPTK OTF Quote
09-14-2015 , 09:01 AM
Oh someone pointed out that I even messed up the range villain has, here is a more believable one (did the other one kind of lazily):

Equity Win Tie
BU 53.46% 53.30% 0.15% AdKd
SB 46.54% 46.39% 0.15% JJ-99, K2s+, Q9s+, J8s+, T9s, Th8h, Ts8s, Tc8c, 9h8h, 9s8s, 9c8c, Th7h, Ts7s, Tc7c, 9h7h, 9s7s, 9c7c, 8h7h, 8s7s, 8c7c, 9h6h, 9s6s, 9c6c, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o
HU 140BB vs strong thinking player AK TPTK OTF Quote
09-14-2015 , 07:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by InternetPoints
Heads up vs a good thinking player who is not scared to make big bluffs or calls. You have 140bb and he covers.

You are BB with AK. He makes it 3x and you make it 3x his raise. Pot is 18bb
Flop is K 10 9 You lead 14bb. He raises to 37bb. What's your play?
__________________________________________________ _____________

I know that you don't beat anything for value but isn't folding extremely exploitable?
That's my problem with folding in this spot. If you fold your hand here the guy will run over you with a forklift.
But shoving is also bad and calling is the worst.
that post alone says sit out pre fishcake. a good thinking player will propably not raise bottom 2 here, and you block the K. so you are up against straights and sets.

he will raise any gutters and straightdraws with no pair alot too.

sorry that is such an easy call.

post the turn.

i would fold on a Q a J definitly and depend any other turn on his sizing.

edit:
also you sizing is terrible on the flop. seeing this i propably lay it down, because you announced your "big hand" with this.

Last edited by spewmachine; 09-14-2015 at 07:27 PM.
HU 140BB vs strong thinking player AK TPTK OTF Quote
09-15-2015 , 06:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spewmachine
a good thinking player will propably not raise bottom 2 here, and you block the K. so you are up against straights and sets.
The value range of [K9, KT, 99, TT, QJ] is 44.92% two pair without accounting for card removal, and 35.18% two pair given that we hold AdKd. So being up against straights and sets is not a logical consequence of blocking a king, or anything close.
HU 140BB vs strong thinking player AK TPTK OTF Quote
09-15-2015 , 06:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spewmachine
sorry that is such an easy call.
That`s just wrong. Although it`s probably a call (if hero decided to c-bet), it is far from a fistpump.

Read the posts by Kardnel and Rei above, which imho, give excellent insights into how hero should build ranges here.
HU 140BB vs strong thinking player AK TPTK OTF Quote
09-15-2015 , 09:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rei Ayanami
The value range of [K9, KT, 99, TT, QJ] is 44.92% two pair without accounting for card removal, and 35.18% two pair given that we hold AdKd. So being up against straights and sets is not a logical consequence of blocking a king, or anything close.
he might not even raise k9.

2 pair is a good slowplaying hand on this board imo, especially against someone more on the tighter side.
HU 140BB vs strong thinking player AK TPTK OTF Quote
09-15-2015 , 10:19 AM
The large cbet size is the mistake here. Can't be good with this hand as we are making hands like 97s want to fold without backdoor fd...
HU 140BB vs strong thinking player AK TPTK OTF Quote
09-22-2015 , 01:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kardnel
(this is a board he doesn't have to worry about overfolding flop much but rather overfolding a lot of non-straight run offs anyway with pair + draws... and adding AJ AQ just compounds that problem).
could you elaborate on this? basically if he floats flop too wide we have a very profitable double/triple barrel on blank run-outs?
HU 140BB vs strong thinking player AK TPTK OTF Quote
01-25-2021 , 12:55 AM
thanks for all your help, I think i finally solved this hand
HU 140BB vs strong thinking player AK TPTK OTF Quote
01-26-2021 , 06:24 PM
thats great, very happy that u solved this hand finally after 6 years.
HU 140BB vs strong thinking player AK TPTK OTF Quote
02-16-2021 , 08:52 PM
I would bet the flop and fold to raise. U have to ask yourself what hands are you beating that he is raising for value? KQ? probably not cause you 3b pre and he knows AK is in your range along with TT 99 and even like QJs. Oh this is 2015 haha. YOu just hit that board so well I just don't see him raising very often with drawing hands. But he could have back door Ax hand and you can call the flop but if he has a value hand your probably almost dead going to the turn.
HU 140BB vs strong thinking player AK TPTK OTF Quote

      
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