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Heads Up NL Discussion of heads up NL Texas Hold'em cash games

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Old 04-02-2017, 05:02 PM   #1
kevin52193
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2/5NL, SCs facing a raise

Greetings.

Let's say you have 67s on the button. You raise, BB 3-bets you. I figure most villains have a merged range OOP, which is what you're supposed to do against a wide flatting range. So if I flat here, isn't that exactly what the BB wants with hands like AJ, QJs, etc?

But then there's position...

I have a hand that can flop somewhat decently. So who has the advantage here? Is it dependent on how much FE I have postflop against this kind of villain, at 2/5? I am unsure as to what the threshold is for flatting IP. Often times I come across 3 betting and opening ranges, but not ones for calling 3 bets with.

Now take a hand like 85s, or 74s, but now i'm the BB. Villain raises IP. My read is there's not enough FE to justify 3 betting here since he flats often. Is it ok to call a 3x raise OOP with these kinds of hands? No right?

Last edited by kevin52193; 04-02-2017 at 05:09 PM.
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Old 04-02-2017, 09:17 PM   #2
thrasher789
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Re: 2/5NL, SCs facing a raise

It's going to depend on villains cbet/check and 4bet/fold to 4bet frequencies

To clarify are you talking about 5nl or 500nl? I'm assuming the latter
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Old 04-03-2017, 12:28 AM   #3
kevin52193
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Re: 2/5NL, SCs facing a raise

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Originally Posted by thrasher789 View Post
It's going to depend on villains cbet/check and 4bet/fold to 4bet frequencies

To clarify are you talking about 5nl or 500nl? I'm assuming the latter
Thanks for the reply. 2 cent/ 5 cent NL. And I see, I suppose it does depend on how comfortable I am playing postflop, and no one can really say for certain.
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Old 04-03-2017, 06:55 AM   #4
Joe Knott
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Re: 2/5NL, SCs facing a raise

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Originally Posted by kevin52193 View Post
I suppose it does depend on how comfortable I am
This is not a very good approach to poker I think.

Yes, BB wants you to call with weaker / "non-polarized" range, but he'd even rather see you fold.

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Originally Posted by kevin52193 View Post
Now take a hand like 85s, or 74s, but now i'm the BB. Villain raises IP. My read is there's not enough FE to justify 3 betting here since he flats often. Is it ok to call a 3x raise OOP with these kinds of hands? No right?
1) Value of a weak hand is lesser in a weak range than value of the same hand in a strong range. So if you 3bet less, it's much tougher to defend your BB with wide enough ranges.

2) Instant fold equity is not the only factor. The flop often gives you a profitable betting opportunity (whether it's a bluff or value bet).
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Old 04-03-2017, 04:20 PM   #5
thrasher789
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Re: 2/5NL, SCs facing a raise

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Thanks for the reply. 2 cent/ 5 cent NL. And I see, I suppose it does depend on how comfortable I am playing postflop, and no one can really say for certain.
ok that changes my answer then

I would probably suggest only playing those suited connectors in 3b pots from the button against players that play very straight forward postflop (i.e. won't fire multiple barrels with two overs as a bluff; will c/f turn). I may not even play them at all due to rake considerations.
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Old 04-03-2017, 05:22 PM   #6
Joe Knott
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Re: 2/5NL, SCs facing a raise

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Originally Posted by thrasher789 View Post
I would probably suggest only playing those suited connectors in 3b pots from the button against players that play very straight forward postflop (i.e. won't fire multiple barrels with two overs as a bluff; will c/f turn). I may not even play them at all due to rake considerations.
Would you suggest folding to standard-sized 3bets 100BB deep with hands like 76s against reasonable or unknown players?

Last edited by Joe Knott; 04-03-2017 at 05:24 PM. Reason: rake is definitely a factor though
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Old 04-03-2017, 06:26 PM   #7
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Re: 2/5NL, SCs facing a raise

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Would you suggest folding to standard-sized 3bets 100BB deep with hands like 76s against reasonable or unknown players?
I mean I personally don't fold them as the stacks creep above 100bb for the most part and it may still be profitable at 5nl, especially if they stack off more often than 50nl+, but since the lower in stakes you get the worse the rake hits you I wouldn't blame a learning player to stick to defending a slightly stronger range (9Ts+ maybe?).

You make it 3bb and opponent makes it 9bb as threeB!. Going to the flop you have an SPR of around ~5 which I would argue isn't great for suited connectors for learning players who aren't going to be able to recognize good bluff spots as easily. Alot of the value of SC in position comes in nonshowdown pots and when the opponent shortens the SPR and takes initiative in the pot I think it may create some -ev spots.

Take all of this with a grain of salt, I just began grinding HU again after break since Black Friday playing only live. But that's my initial gut impression.
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Old 04-04-2017, 03:39 AM   #8
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Re: 2/5NL, SCs facing a raise

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Originally Posted by thrasher789 View Post
I mean I personally don't fold them as the stacks creep above 100bb for the most part and it may still be profitable at 5nl, especially if they stack off more often than 50nl+, but since the lower in stakes you get the worse the rake hits you I wouldn't blame a learning player to stick to defending a slightly stronger range (9Ts+ maybe?).

You make it 3bb and opponent makes it 9bb as threeB!. Going to the flop you have an SPR of around ~5 which I would argue isn't great for suited connectors for learning players who aren't going to be able to recognize good bluff spots as easily. Alot of the value of SC in position comes in nonshowdown pots and when the opponent shortens the SPR and takes initiative in the pot I think it may create some -ev spots.

Take all of this with a grain of salt, I just began grinding HU again after break since Black Friday playing only live. But that's my initial gut impression.
I think it's reasonable to have tighter ranges when you're at the very start of the learning process, you have a point. But I think folding 76s to a 3x 3bet is a little tight, as I don't see how you don't fold 2/3+ of your opening range. And that's IMO never a good default strategy.
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Old 04-04-2017, 12:45 PM   #9
kevin52193
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Re: 2/5NL, SCs facing a raise

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Originally Posted by Joe Knott View Post
This is not a very good approach to poker I think.

1) Value of a weak hand is lesser in a weak range than value of the same hand in a strong range. So if you 3bet less, it's much tougher to defend your BB with wide enough ranges.
Never considered how 3 betting these types of hands takes them away from my OOP flatting range, making my flatting range stronger. Wow.

And I see, a large part of calling 3 bets IP is having these postflop reads. It's like how you can raise low boards against villains that always bet them but never hit.

It's all coming together now
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Old 04-04-2017, 04:36 PM   #10
Tutejszy
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Re: 2/5NL, SCs facing a raise

do NOT fold any suited connectors to most reasonably sized 3bets hu. With a tiny 3bb->9bb 3bet size Im probably even defending as wide as 67o vs most opponents, position gives you massive advantage in those spots.
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