Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Heads Up NL Discussion of heads up NL Texas Hold'em cash games

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-17-2014, 03:04 AM   #176
BonitaMadras
adept
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 760
Re: 100NL Coolers or bad play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spladle View Post
You've basically got it. Highly dynamic boards are indeed much more difficult to "solve" and require more work away from the tables, and ignoring check-raising isn't right, but to my knowledge no superior method exists to "intuition + simulations + poking/prodding strategies for weaknesses."
Thanks again, Spladle!

So in the end it all boils down to hard work and a good memory.
BonitaMadras is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2014, 11:49 AM   #177
GntlmnsHndshk
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: www.runitonce.com
Posts: 81
Re: 100NL Coolers or bad play?

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by GntlmnsHndshk View Post
These terms are a bit fuzzy, but since it's not practical too write out the solution to all of poker, I'm going to continue to use these terms unless you can come up with something better.
They're not just fuzzy, they're literally worse than worthless, because they encourage you to think incorrectly about how to play poker well.
It's hypocritical for you to say using these terms are '"worse than worthless" pre flop, yet at the same time apply them as well when describing the construction of your flop range. The same fuzziness that is encountered pre flop is present on the flop, and yet you choose to be critical in one place but not another.
GntlmnsHndshk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2014, 02:30 AM   #178
Spladle
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,518
Re: 100NL Coolers or bad play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeHoldem1848 View Post
Not sure what that means exactly
Expressing shock that you see guys folding 70-75% against 3-bets "a fair amount" at .25/.50; I might just start 3-betting 100% until these people adjusted, out of pity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeHoldem1848 View Post
you left the interesting part off the quote because those hands benefit more in terms of EV than 3 betting a hand like 89o


Maybe that's lol or lolobvious. You're certainly much smarter than me if it is.
It's not 100% certain to be true (we'll need to solve the game before we'll know for sure), but I'm pretty sure David Sklansky wrote about this in No-Limit Hold 'em Theory and Practice.

Just checked, and yeah, it's on page 105. When 3-betting a polarized range, it's best to 3-bet hands that are either marginally profitable or barely unprofitable calls as your "bluffs."
Spladle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2014, 02:32 AM   #179
Spladle
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,518
Re: 100NL Coolers or bad play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeHoldem1848 View Post
Fictitious play tho.
Nope, human intuition still trumps computers at HUNL, at least for now. Even the best bots in the world today would get completely destroyed by any halfway decent human.
Spladle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2014, 02:47 AM   #180
Spladle
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,518
Re: 100NL Coolers or bad play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GntlmnsHndshk View Post
Cool, thx. What % of hands are you flatting with preflop, so I can guesstimate your continuing range.
Depends on a lot of factors, but let's say ~50%, just for funsies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GntlmnsHndshk View Post
My reason has to do with the idea that the SB wouldn't be indifferent between betting and checking some mixed strategy hands if he wasn't able to bet any two cards profitably.
This is wrong. The fact that some hands play a mixed strategy between betting and checking in no way implies that all hands can be profitably bet.
Spladle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2014, 02:51 AM   #181
Spladle
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,518
Re: 100NL Coolers or bad play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BonitaMadras View Post
Thanks again, Spladle!
np

Quote:
Originally Posted by BonitaMadras View Post
So in the end it all boils down to hard work and a good memory.
Only if the things you're memorizing are actually correct. There's no sense working hard to remember erroneous conclusion. The ability to think deeply/creatively and find holes/flaws in your strategy that may not be immediately apparent is of vital importance.
Spladle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2014, 03:01 AM   #182
Spladle
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,518
Re: 100NL Coolers or bad play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GntlmnsHndshk View Post
It's hypocritical for you to say using these terms are '"worse than worthless" pre flop, yet at the same time apply them as well when describing the construction of your flop range. The same fuzziness that is encountered pre flop is present on the flop, and yet you choose to be critical in one place but not another.
No, that's not what the word hypocritical means.

Also, I'm afraid you may have misunderstood my comment. The terms "value" and "bluff" are not worse than worthless in all possible pre-flop situations - they are perfectly sensible when one has a polarized range, for example. However, I do not believe it is correct to 3-bet a polarized range OOP. Referring to some of your 3-bets as "value" and others as "bluffs" may create the mistaken impression that you should be 3-betting a polarized range when in fact you should not be. This is why I said that the terms were worse than worthless.

Would you kindly call attention to some examples of me using the terms "value" and "bluffs" when describing the construction of my flop range?
Spladle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2014, 12:57 AM   #183
GntlmnsHndshk
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: www.runitonce.com
Posts: 81
Re: 100NL Coolers or bad play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spladle View Post
No, that's not what the word hypocritical means.
if you say so, but mr webster agrees with me. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dicti...0&t=1390106896

Quote:
Also, I'm afraid you may have misunderstood my comment. The terms "value" and "bluff" are not worse than worthless in all possible pre-flop situations - they are perfectly sensible when one has a polarized range, for example. However, I do not believe it is correct to 3-bet a polarized range OOP. Referring to some of your 3-bets as "value" and others as "bluffs" may create the mistaken impression that you should be 3-betting a polarized range when in fact you should not be. This is why I said that the terms were worse than worthless.
There's no such thing as a "polarized" preflop range where your value hands have 100% equity and your bluffs have 0%. Can you clarify what you mean by polarized?


Quote:
Would you kindly call attention to some examples of me using the terms "value" and "bluffs" when describing the construction of my flop range?
post 92... "It depends on how much you bet and how the board runs out, obviously. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were some reasonable sizings/run-outs where getting 3 streets of value was possible at equilibrium."

post 104..."If my range is too strong and overly weighted towards value hands, yes. I try not to let it be though.... The only hands that DON'T want a small pot on any particular board are strong value hands. Yet it seems obvious that one cannot have a c/r range consist only of strong value hands. One should either never c/r or c/r other hands as well. On this particular board, I feel many combos of 4x make decent hands to balance a c/r range with, and I believe many combos that people would use as c/r semi-bluffs actually play better as calls."
GntlmnsHndshk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2014, 02:36 AM   #184
zachaser
adept
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,102
Re: 100NL Coolers or bad play?

Spladle,
How would you change your adjustments to HU hyper turbos? 25bb starting structure.

For example, you mentioned how you would balance your c/c range and your c/r range on 884 rainbow (c/r more 8x than c/c 8x, but more likely to have 8x when we c/c). What kind of range/hands would you contest on the same board against say, a 75% mr (pretty standard for hypers) and 70% cb at 25bb? Assume all we know is that villain mr's and cb's alot, not necessarily how he responds to c/r or how often he barrels, etc.

How about on a more dynamic board, like Qs8h7h?

Any input appreciated.
Thanks!
zachaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2014, 06:59 PM   #185
Spladle
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,518
Re: 100NL Coolers or bad play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GntlmnsHndshk View Post
if you say so, but mr webster agrees with me. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dicti...0&t=1390106896
No he doesn't, you're saying silly stuff again. This is why I can't give you the benefit of the doubt.

Even if we pretend for the sake of argument that I had claimed the terms "value" and "bluff" were worse than worthless in all possible pre-flop situations (which I did not do, but let's pretend), this would not imply that they were necessarily worse than worthless in all possible flop situations, and thus it would not be hypocritical to use the terms when describing the construction of a flop range.

I realize that English is hard, but it's a language worth learning, I assure you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GntlmnsHndshk View Post
There's no such thing as a "polarized" preflop range where your value hands have 100% equity and your bluffs have 0%. Can you clarify what you mean by polarized?
Sure. The first thing you ought to understand is that all river bets should use polarized ranges, and yet not all of your value hands should have 100% equity against the calling range. In a similar vein, turn bets should also tend to use polarized ranges, and yet very few of your "bluffs" should have 0% equity against the calling range. Thus, it is flat wrong to say that value hands must have 100% equity and "bluffs" 0% in order for a range to be polarized. Instead, a pre-flop range is properly referred to as "polarized" when it contains discontinuities - that is, if you wanted to highlight all the hands in it on a 13x13 chart, you would need to pick up your pen. A "linear" pre-flop range, on the other hand, contains no discontinuities.

As an example, consider offsuit aces in the SB facing a 3-bet and in the BB facing an open-raise. Suppose you wanted to 3-bet a linear range from the BB and 4-bet a polarized range from the SB. A linear range might include AT+, while a polarized range might include AK,A9-A7. Make sense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GntlmnsHndshk View Post
post 92... "It depends on how much you bet and how the board runs out, obviously. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were some reasonable sizings/run-outs where getting 3 streets of value was possible at equilibrium."

post 104..."If my range is too strong and overly weighted towards value hands, yes. I try not to let it be though.... The only hands that DON'T want a small pot on any particular board are strong value hands. Yet it seems obvious that one cannot have a c/r range consist only of strong value hands. One should either never c/r or c/r other hands as well. On this particular board, I feel many combos of 4x make decent hands to balance a c/r range with, and I believe many combos that people would use as c/r semi-bluffs actually play better as calls."
Perhaps I should have been more specific. Would you kindly call attention to some examples of me using the term "bluffs" (without quotes) when describing the construction of my flop range?
Spladle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2014, 07:40 PM   #186
Spladle
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,518
Re: 100NL Coolers or bad play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zachaser View Post
Spladle,
How would you change your adjustments to HU hyper turbos? 25bb starting structure.
Most important adjustment with stacks this short is 3-bet jamming a much wider range than you would 3-bet with deeper stacks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zachaser View Post
For example, you mentioned how you would balance your c/c range and your c/r range on 884 rainbow (c/r more 8x than c/c 8x, but more likely to have 8x when we c/c). What kind of range/hands would you contest on the same board against say, a 75% mr (pretty standard for hypers) and 70% cb at 25bb? Assume all we know is that villain mr's and cb's alot, not necessarily how he responds to c/r or how often he barrels, etc.
Fold more, call less, check-raise more. Reason for folding more is that by 3-bet jamming wider pre-flop you weaken your continuing range when you call, forcing/allowing you to defend less often on the flop. Reason for check-raising more is that you can check-raise wider for value with shorter stacks, because the ex-post showdown equity advantage of position is diminished.

As for which specific hands to continue with, that actually doesn't change very much. Ace-high or better + any two cards 5 or higher with a backdoor flush draw + gutshots. However, because you mostly want to be jamming pre with pocket pairs, almost all ace-high hands, and a lot of suited stuff, these hands will constitute a lower percentage of your overall range than they did when you were deeper. Thus, you'll be folding more.

One big difference with shorter stacks is that while I think you should often just call 4x 100bb deep, I'd c/r it ~100% of the time 25bb deep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zachaser View Post
How about on a more dynamic board, like Qs8h7h?
Pretty similar adjustments really - raise more (slow-play less) frequently with strong hands, make semi-bluffs a smaller fraction of your raising range, etc.
Spladle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2014, 09:00 PM   #187
zachaser
adept
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,102
Re: 100NL Coolers or bad play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spladle View Post


Pretty similar adjustments really - raise more (slow-play less) frequently with strong hands, make semi-bluffs a smaller fraction of your raising range, etc.
On the Qs8h7h, let's say we c/r Qx flush draws, straight draws, and gutshots. We flat 8x/7x, maybe some K high. Doesn't this leave our flatting range as extremely weak/capped and what can we do about it?
zachaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2014, 12:50 AM   #188
Spladle
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,518
Re: 100NL Coolers or bad play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zachaser View Post
On the Qs8h7h, let's say we c/r Qx flush draws, straight draws, and gutshots. We flat 8x/7x, maybe some K high. Doesn't this leave our flatting range as extremely weak/capped and what can we do about it?
Well, my default would be to c/c Qx here rather than c/r, so I suppose you could start by doing that.
Spladle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2014, 12:35 PM   #189
samooth
veteran
 
samooth's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: gutrotting
Posts: 3,131
Re: 100NL Coolers or bad play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spladle View Post
Nope, human intuition still trumps computers at HUNL, at least for now. Even the best bots in the world today would get completely destroyed by any halfway decent human.
what makes you think that? were you exaggerating with the word halfway or do you have reason (evidence?) to believe that the best nl bots indeed "suck"?
samooth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2014, 12:39 PM   #190
fityfmi
old hand
 
fityfmi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Only the ladder is real.
Posts: 1,634
Re: 100NL Coolers or bad play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by samooth View Post
what makes you think that? were you exaggerating with the word halfway or do you have reason (evidence?) to believe that the best nl bots indeed "suck"?
Hard to imagine that these guys are beating us.
fityfmi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2014, 02:59 AM   #191
Spladle
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,518
Re: 100NL Coolers or bad play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by samooth View Post
what makes you think that? were you exaggerating with the word halfway or do you have reason (evidence?) to believe that the best nl bots indeed "suck"?
Not exaggerating in the slightest, the best NL bots are terrible and have nothing to teach us yet. Ironically, you can learn more about HUNL from the best limit bots than the best NL bots.
Spladle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2014, 09:18 AM   #192
Trix
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Denmark
Posts: 7,386
Re: 100NL Coolers or bad play?

Depends whether you are talking about the bots that plays real money or the university bots I think.
Trix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2014, 11:39 AM   #193
Spladle
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,518
Re: 100NL Coolers or bad play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trix View Post
Depends whether you are talking about the bots that plays real money or the university bots I think.
No it doesn't. Every bot currently in existence is earth-shatteringly awful. If you can't beat the bots that play for real money then you are yourself earth-shatteringly awful. I doubt that I could win less than 30bb/100 against them without actively trying to lose.
Spladle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2014, 08:24 PM   #194
Djross13
grinder
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 429
Re: 100NL Coolers or bad play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spladle View Post
No it doesn't. Every bot currently in existence is earth-shatteringly awful. If you can't beat the bots that play for real money then you are yourself earth-shatteringly awful. I doubt that I could win less than 30bb/100 against them without actively trying to lose.
Do you mind elaborating on why you think they are so terrible? Thanks
Djross13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2014, 01:58 AM   #195
Spladle
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,518
Re: 100NL Coolers or bad play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Djross13 View Post
Do you mind elaborating on why you think they are so terrible? Thanks
100% attributable to the complexity introduced by having a huge number of possible bet sizes. All bots are forced to simplify the game by rounding bet sizes up or down. Once you figure out the exact way in which they do so, you can exploit them in mind-boggling ways that would be unthinkable against a human opponent.
Spladle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2014, 02:02 AM   #196
Djross13
grinder
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 429
Re: 100NL Coolers or bad play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spladle View Post
100% attributable to the complexity introduced by having a huge number of possible bet sizes. All bots are forced to simplify the game by rounding bet sizes up or down. Once you figure out the exact way in which they do so, you can exploit them in mind-boggling ways that would be unthinkable against a human opponent.
It is relatively easy to determine this information, especially without software?
Djross13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2014, 03:11 AM   #197
fityfmi
old hand
 
fityfmi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Only the ladder is real.
Posts: 1,634
Re: 100NL Coolers or bad play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spladle View Post
But if that were the reason, then why would I be more likely to 3-bet KJo against a 3x than a 2x?

It has more to do with the SPRs created by 3-betting and how much a hand hates getting 4-bet.
Can you explain why you would prefer a smaller SPR with KJ than with 77? Is one of the reasons that you advocate 3betting more frequently vs a 2x that we would more easily be able to continue against a 4bet, because of the higher SPR (higher implied odds)?
fityfmi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2014, 12:22 AM   #198
Spladle
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,518
Re: 100NL Coolers or bad play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Djross13 View Post
It is relatively easy to determine this information, especially without software?
Depends on what you think "relatively easy" means, I suppose.
Spladle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2014, 12:26 AM   #199
Spladle
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,518
Re: 100NL Coolers or bad play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fityfmi View Post
Can you explain why you would prefer a smaller SPR with KJ than with 77?
I wouldn't. Why do you think I would?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fityfmi View Post
Is one of the reasons that you advocate 3betting more frequently vs a 2x that we would more easily be able to continue against a 4bet, because of the higher SPR (higher implied odds)?
No, in fact the opposite is true. Being deeper/having a higher SPR is a reason to fold more against 4-bets, because the ex-showdown equity advantage of position will be higher in that situation. If we're saying that the concept of "implied odds" is relevant here, then being deeper would mean that our reverse implied odds were going up.
Spladle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2014, 12:36 PM   #200
fityfmi
old hand
 
fityfmi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Only the ladder is real.
Posts: 1,634
Re: 100NL Coolers or bad play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spladle View Post
I wouldn't. Why do you think I would?
Because this was your answer when I asked why you are more likely to 3bet KJo vs 3x, and more likely to 3bet 77 vs 2x:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spladle View Post
It has more to do with the SPRs created by 3-betting and how much a hand hates getting 4-bet.
At 100bb deep, a 3bet against 3x can, depending on sizing, create a SPR around 4. Against a 2x we would more likely have a SPR of around 6. Of course, I would be too quick to assume that this is all about SPR. However, when you increase your 3bet % against smaller raises, I wonder why KJo is suddently in your calling range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spladle View Post
No, in fact the opposite is true. Being deeper/having a higher SPR is a reason to fold more against 4-bets, because the ex-showdown equity advantage of position will be higher in that situation. If we're saying that the concept of "implied odds" is relevant here, then being deeper would mean that our reverse implied odds were going up.
Yes, this makes sense, I think. When calling a 4bet with 89s, you would want to have the possibility to win more when you flop >1p, but that's going to happen rarely, and is not enough to counter the times when you flop TP/MP and have to hold on for a while, only to find out that villain has cowboys. And on top of that you are oop.
fityfmi is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online