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PPA Statement Regarding 11/13/2012 Meeting with the Department of Justice PPA Statement Regarding 11/13/2012 Meeting with the Department of Justice

11-13-2012 , 08:19 PM
Here's PPA's statement on the meeting:

PPA Statement Regarding Meeting with the Department of Justice
John A. Pappas, Executive Director, Poker Players Alliance

“Today I met with officials from the U.S. Department of Justice (DoJ), Asset Forfeiture and Money Laundering Section. This is the division of the DOJ that oversees the process of remission for victims of crimes. The settlement in United States v. Pokerstars, et al. designated for refunds to U.S. players over $200 million in funds forfeited on April 15, 2011 by PokerStars, relating to their FultTilt Poker accounts. I was joined by PPA counsel Marc Zwillinger and Ken Dreifach from the Washington D.C.-based law firm ZwillGen, PLLC. It was a cordial and productive meeting. We provided DOJ with information and insights on what the player community expects from the remission process, and how we believe such a process ought be administered to assure fairness.

Our first priority was to reaffirm our earlier assertions from an August 8, 2012 letter that 100 percent of player account balances be made available to players through the remission process. We laid out compelling legal and practical arguments why full repayment was the only equitable solution. We also raised the issue of “player point” balances on FullTilt Poker and encouraged the DOJ to recognize the inherent value of these points when they consider what a player is owed. Our thoughts on these matters were well received; however, it was clear from our discussion that no decisions have been made at the DoJ regarding the manner of repayment of player balances. Nevertheless, we have provided them with a clear picture of the expectations of the player community.

Secondly, we shared our thoughts on a streamlined process for players to apply for and receive their funds. We emphasized the need for a flexible approach to player authentication and verification. While they would not confirm so in the meeting, we are hopeful that the DoJ has sufficient means to authenticate players based on the records such as user name, passwords, security questions and email addresses.

Our third objective was to get a sense of timing. Unfortunately, completion of a refund claims process is a long way away. The first step in this process will be the Department’s hiring of of a third-party claims administrator, after a bidding process: there is no current date certain for that selection to occur. But it was evident that even when a claims administrator is hired, forfeiture and remission procedures require that a substantial administrative process be adhered to before players begin seeing their funds. The PPA will remain vigilant in our advocacy for the players. We are also mindful of the staffing and resource limitations of the Department – and the numerous other forfeiture cases they are administering -- and we thus have offered our assistance to help them navigate the complexities of the issues and hopefully expedite the refund process.

This is certainly not good news for those poker players still awaiting the return of their money, but it is all the news the PPA can provide at this time. Beyond that the PPA can only pledge to continue its work with the DOJ and do everything it can to help the DOJ get the process moving as soon as possible. The PPA’s legal team is already working on specific methods to help accomplish this objective.

While there were not many answers to come from this meeting, I do believe that it was beneficial and that there is a clear record for the Department to make the right decisions with respect to the player remission process. We fully expect to keep a continued and open dialogue with the Department and we will continue to update you as more information becomes available.
PPA Statement Regarding 11/13/2012 Meeting with the Department of Justice Quote
11-13-2012 , 08:28 PM
This is not good news. When we thought they were going to expedite things, we were hoping for a year or two. What are we looking at now, 3 years minimum?
PPA Statement Regarding 11/13/2012 Meeting with the Department of Justice Quote
11-13-2012 , 08:39 PM
Seems standard

Mid 2014 IMO
PPA Statement Regarding 11/13/2012 Meeting with the Department of Justice Quote
11-13-2012 , 09:02 PM
Yeah my mid 13 prediction now seems pretty optimistic.

Also didn't like the balance answer.

Glad the PPA laid out our concerns, thats all they can do at this point.

EDIT: did the DOJ lay out any alternatives they were thinking of besides what the PPA suggested? I.e. deposits only, no credit for points?

Last edited by LetsGambool; 11-13-2012 at 09:15 PM.
PPA Statement Regarding 11/13/2012 Meeting with the Department of Justice Quote
11-13-2012 , 09:22 PM
John,

I am going to renew a suggestion that I made earlier, before the PStars settlement, the securing of funds, but their shipping into the long, drawn out remission process. Get something concrete into any federal bill, language to pay players first.

No payout, No blackout:

The PPA should make a speedy resultion of these already funded claims the subject of and part and parcel of any federal legislation you would support. In other words, set a timetable into legislation, specifically for this case.

Before your resident naysayer cries "lunacy", out of fear or a lack of imagination, it is clear that a statutory provision resolving player concerns could address those concerns, regardless of the current remission provisions looking at a multi-year, bureaucratic mess.

If the PPA is poised to accept a "blackout" of 15+ months, at least it should demand a "payout", and sooner, rather than later.

"No payout, no blackout" !
PPA Statement Regarding 11/13/2012 Meeting with the Department of Justice Quote
11-13-2012 , 09:30 PM
I loved that idea before the poker stars transaction and when the Reid/Kyl bill was still in development.

Think now it would just sink Reid/Kyl (fine by me, but against the will of the community) or, more likely, be summarily ignored.

If we go the statutory route, I'd rather just find a friendly rep/Senator to pass a rider to must pass legislation just to pay back players separate from Reid/Kyl. Thats a helluva lot easier, in my opinion, then adding a bill reshaping the gambling landscape to must-pass
PPA Statement Regarding 11/13/2012 Meeting with the Department of Justice Quote
11-13-2012 , 09:31 PM
this is a ***** joke.why these ******s couldnt just let stars repay us is beyond me. how long we gotta wait 1,2,3,4 years. i mean wtf is the hold up. this isnt brain surgery.
PPA Statement Regarding 11/13/2012 Meeting with the Department of Justice Quote
11-13-2012 , 09:46 PM
I'm really glad to see that they're holding themselves to the same standard they set for Stars reimbursing players.
PPA Statement Regarding 11/13/2012 Meeting with the Department of Justice Quote
11-13-2012 , 09:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEngineer
Here's PPA's statement on the meeting:

PPA Statement Regarding Meeting with the Department of Justice
John A. Pappas, Executive Director, Poker Players Alliance

“Today I met with officials from the U.S. Department of Justice (DoJ), Asset Forfeiture and Money Laundering Section. ...

The PPA will remain vigilant in our advocacy for the players. We are also mindful of the staffing and resource limitations of the Department – and the numerous other forfeiture cases they are administering -- and we thus have offered our assistance to help them navigate the complexities of the issues and hopefully expedite the refund process.

This is certainly not good news for those poker players still awaiting the return of their money, but it is all the news the PPA can provide at this time. Beyond that the PPA can only pledge to continue its work with the DOJ and do everything it can to help the DOJ get the process moving as soon as possible. The PPA’s legal team is already working on specific methods to help accomplish this objective.
...

We fully expect to keep a continued and open dialogue with the Department and we will continue to update you as more information becomes available.
Don't Mourn, Privatize

John,

Another suggestion.

Why not sponsor a bidder for the job of faciltating/making the distributions ?

If some unemployed former online poker US folks, (like Stars employees), were able to efficiently process timely cashouts in the face of government harassment, don't you think there is available expertise in th private sector to bid for a job making quick work of an effective distribution.

Hell, didn't Stars do it for the ROW, using the SAME data as DOJ can get for US players ?

Don't Mourn, Privatize !
PPA Statement Regarding 11/13/2012 Meeting with the Department of Justice Quote
11-13-2012 , 10:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonkeyQuixote
Don't Mourn, Privatize

John,

Another suggestion.

Why not sponsor a bidder for the job of faciltating/making the distributions ?

If some unemployed former online poker US folks, (like Stars employees), were able to efficiently process timely cashouts in the face of government harassment, don't you think there is available expertise in th private sector to bid for a job making quick work of an effective distribution.

Hell, didn't Stars do it for the ROW, using the SAME data as DOJ can get for US players ?

Don't Mourn, Privatize !
They are looking at big firms. Whoever charges the least and bribes them the most.

They refuse to let stars do the refund, steal 1 billion dollars+ since 2009 and cry of understaffing and limited resources? **** THEM IN THE ASS.
PPA Statement Regarding 11/13/2012 Meeting with the Department of Justice Quote
11-13-2012 , 10:35 PM
The DOJ writting the book on how to resteal effectively. LOL supersystems #powerpoker
PPA Statement Regarding 11/13/2012 Meeting with the Department of Justice Quote
11-13-2012 , 10:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEngineer

“Today I met with officials from the U.S. Department of Justice (DoJ), Asset Forfeiture and Money Laundering Section. This is the division of the DOJ that oversees the process of remission for victims of crimes.

Our thoughts on these matters were well received; however, it was clear from our discussion that no decisions have been made at the DoJ regarding the manner of repayment of player balances.

While they would not confirm so in the meeting, we are hopeful that the DoJ has sufficient means to authenticate players based on the records such as user name, passwords, security questions and email addresses.

Our third objective was to get a sense of timing. Unfortunately, completion of a refund claims process is a long way away.

there is no current date certain for that selection to occur. But it was evident that even when a claims administrator is hired, forfeiture and remission procedures require that a substantial administrative process be adhered to before players begin seeing their funds.

This is certainly not good news for those poker players still awaiting the return of their money, but it is all the news the PPA can provide at this time.

While there were not many answers to come from this meeting, I do believe that it was beneficial and that there is a clear record for the Department to make the right decisions with respect to the player remission process.
Sigh, and I say this in no fault to the PPA who diligently stands up for Poker Players, but to the DoJ who is obviously in a position to take this process as slow as they wish. It's clear they see no need to get going with the repayment process to US players atm, and it's my belief US players are still years away from seeing the process get underway IMO.

Much appreciation to the PPA on their meeting with the DoJ, they are doing their part and we can all appreciate that. However, with no real recourse we can take against the DoJ regarding the repayment process it's apparent time and authority are well on their side here.
PPA Statement Regarding 11/13/2012 Meeting with the Department of Justice Quote
11-13-2012 , 10:55 PM
Here is the section of my post in the NVG thread, absent a quote and my specific reply to it:

Quote:
....
For those who say the PPA meeting brought you nothing, I say the PPA meeting brought you important information you previously did not have.

Second, with the benefit of hindsight, I should apologize for even my limited optimism expressed in this thread. It is now clear that the SDNY office of the DOJ has a different understanding of "fast" than does the AFMLS division of the DOJ - and it is the AFMLS that is in charge of this process now.

What that essentially means is the AFMLS plans to move this case "fast" in comparison to its other remission cases, not in comparison with Poker Stars. 1938Ford and DoTheMath have posted at length about the speed at which other AFMLS remission cases have moved. My hope that the unique nature of the FTP case might help it move quicker appears to have had a far more limited effect than I thought it would.

The limited good news, which I feel compelled to mention merely for information's sake, is that the DOJ officials were engaged and familiar with the case and its issues in general and expressed clear appreciation for what we added. While there were no decisions to report, it is at least of small value at this point that that also includes the fact that there were no outright rejection of the PPA positions.

I do think, at this time, that it is best for players to plan for their money by next Christmas, not this one. And I know the pain that statement inflicts, but it is what you needed to know even if it is the last thing you wanted to hear.

That said, neither I nor the PPA will give up on trying to figure a way to help move this along. I welcome all ideas, though I suspect it is better to discuss them in the Poker Legislation forum here on 2+2 rather than in NVG. While I doubt there is any way to shave more than a few months off this time line, I know well that a even few months earlier is important.

But to those who just want to engage in a little PPA bashing, I will simply say one thing: if you do not realize how much better it is to stand up and fight for what you believe in, even IF you accomplish nothing of value, than it is to do nothing and simply accept what you are given - then IMHO your opinion is not of much value.
I already have some ideas regarding what we can do, but so far none of them involves throwing a tantrum. Others are working on this too and have additional ideas. All serious additional ideas are appreciated.

As I have said from the beginning, we cannot control this process. But I am not ready to give up on trying to influence it for the better.

Skallagrim
PPA Statement Regarding 11/13/2012 Meeting with the Department of Justice Quote
11-13-2012 , 11:11 PM
Quote:
I think it is telling of their growing influence in Washington and impressive the PPA was able to secure a meeting with the DOJ to even discuss this case.
This is nice to see.
PPA Statement Regarding 11/13/2012 Meeting with the Department of Justice Quote
11-13-2012 , 11:21 PM
So I can write if off as a loss on my taxes ??
PPA Statement Regarding 11/13/2012 Meeting with the Department of Justice Quote
11-13-2012 , 11:29 PM
anyone care to give odds on which one comes first us being able to play on ftp and access funds that way or getting repaid from DOJ lol
PPA Statement Regarding 11/13/2012 Meeting with the Department of Justice Quote
11-13-2012 , 11:37 PM
Repaid, easily
PPA Statement Regarding 11/13/2012 Meeting with the Department of Justice Quote
11-13-2012 , 11:55 PM
pokerstars paid out in like 2 weeks. DOJ is going to be 2+ years. Shows how efficient our government is.
PPA Statement Regarding 11/13/2012 Meeting with the Department of Justice Quote
11-14-2012 , 12:09 AM
So first FTP stole our money and stars repaid us so the doj could steal our money? What is so hard about giving back what is ours just like stars just did with row?
PPA Statement Regarding 11/13/2012 Meeting with the Department of Justice Quote
11-14-2012 , 12:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by usmcgrunt
anyone care to give odds on which one comes first us being able to play on ftp and access funds that way or getting repaid from DOJ lol
This is a no brainer. The real question is, which comes first, federal legislation or repayment from the DOJ?
PPA Statement Regarding 11/13/2012 Meeting with the Department of Justice Quote
11-14-2012 , 01:08 AM
Im grateful to have the PPA and the people working for us poker players.

However what exactly was the point of this meeting? The DOJ basically said absolutely nothing in regards to anything at all. There will be a remission process... we are taking bids... We have to hire an administrative team to do this... blah blah blah we already know all this.

There was absolutely no new information given..
PPA Statement Regarding 11/13/2012 Meeting with the Department of Justice Quote
11-14-2012 , 01:13 AM
most powerful gangsters in the history of the world keeps on doing its thing. good luck guys
PPA Statement Regarding 11/13/2012 Meeting with the Department of Justice Quote
11-14-2012 , 01:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GutPunch
...There was absolutely no new information given..
When the RFI went out for a third-party claims administrator, there were people hoping to get their money in several months.

It was made abundantly clear today that isn't going to happen.
PPA Statement Regarding 11/13/2012 Meeting with the Department of Justice Quote
11-14-2012 , 01:27 AM
I am ready to take some action on this. I am up for whatever we think will have the biggest impact (legally, of course). The only thing that comes to mind right now is getting some mainstream media coverage. Even if it might not have any impact, I feel like I need to act on this matter to maintain my sanity.
PPA Statement Regarding 11/13/2012 Meeting with the Department of Justice Quote
11-14-2012 , 01:36 AM
skallagrim--wtf @ telling us we got new info when we got no new info. We already knew all of this. If anyone expected gov't to act quickly despite their historical track record... Come on.

I'm amazed they even had a meeting tho so kudos for that; but there's a great chance it didn't mean anything in the end. They're going to do w/e they want regardless of what anyone says.
PPA Statement Regarding 11/13/2012 Meeting with the Department of Justice Quote

      
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