Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Poker Legislation & PPA Discussion hosted by Rich Muny Discussions of various poker-related laws and steps players can take to push for better laws.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-29-2009, 03:14 PM   #151
Baltimore Jones
Pooh-Bah
 
Baltimore Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,054
Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

Can this be postmarked today or tomorrow and be okay if it doesn't get to them by tomorrow? From the form:

"When and where to file. This report must be filed on or
before June 30 of the year following the calendar year
reported. The report is required annually. File by mailing this
report to the Department of the Treasury, Post Office Box
32621, Detroit, MI 48232-0621, or by hand-carrying it to any
local office of the Internal Revenue Service for forwarding to
the Department of the Treasury, Detroit, MI."

Almost definitely a waste to send it express mail, no? Is that really going to make a difference?
Baltimore Jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2009, 04:11 PM   #152
curtains
banned
 
curtains's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 17,681
Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

Quote:
Originally Posted by insidemanpoker View Post
Russ claiming that the government would ever throw a big penalty and or jail time at someone that didnt do this is such a load of junk that it questions his judgment. If you aren't paying your taxes, then yes, and you'll get what you deserve. But if you are claiming all your winnings, but don't call Absolute Poker a bank, and you get audited, you are really not facing anything serious. It is VERY unclear that you are required to report absolute as a foreign bank account. Their default answer to Russ' inquiries will always be yes, declare, report, etc. There is no precedent for them to claim Absolute should be called that, and if you are making a good faith effort to pay your taxes, you should not let his alarmist statements cause you huge worry.

That being said, I actually am very appreciative of his efforts to inform people here. Having been through an audit, it just feels like he is a bit over-hawkish on how the IRS works. Yes, they want to suck out every penny. But if you are paying your taxes, and making a good faith effort to do it right, they don't try and cripple you and lock you up. The good faith effort thing is actually something they care about and also something they can decide reasonably.

IMO this poster is obviously correct, regardless of whether he is a professional or not. No honest taxpayer is ****ing going to jail and getting a 100k fine because they didn't understand to report a poker site as a foreign bank account, unless perhaps there is some insanely large money in this account.
curtains is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2009, 04:16 PM   #153
curtains
banned
 
curtains's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 17,681
Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

Quote:
Originally Posted by LetsGambool View Post
CPA's are notoriously terrible when it comes to gambling income.

You should read the case law on netting and contact the IRS yourself with these questions. Its not really unclear that you can't net winnings.

While you are 100% correct no one is going to jail for not filing an FBAR for poker sites (not without other tax issues), the IRS doesnt typically work on a "oh you didnt know, so that's OK" basis.

If you talk to a tax professional and are comfortable with the risk of not reporting, fine, but being angry at Russ for trying to clarify things with the IRS and for telling you to talk with your own tax professional (which, I believe, he is required to do by the ethical code of conduct of his profession) is silly
Russ is the one who said it's possible you'll go to jail and face a 100k fine even if you are otherwise an honest taxpayer, and you just completely contradicted him. I find it extremely irresponsible that he would do such a thing unless there is some reasonable grain of truth behind it, which I strongly don't believe that there is. I don't know why everyone here allows these constant fearmongering statements by him that I've seen for the past few years. I can't remember examples but I've responded to them in the past.
curtains is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2009, 05:20 PM   #154
HokieGreg
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: mr/folding 4.5bb deep
Posts: 4,217
Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

has to be postmarked by the 30th and u are all good

im shipping mine out tomorrow, bc i do everything last minute

holla
HokieGreg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2009, 10:42 PM   #155
sba9630
Pooh-Bah
 
sba9630's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: This space intentionally left blank
Posts: 4,511
IRS Extends Deadline for Filing FBAR

Quote:
The Internal Revenue Service has extended the deadline for filing a report on foreign bank accounts to Sept. 23 from the original June 30 deadline as it seeks to crack down on offshore tax havens.

The IRS recently issued a revised version of Form TD F 90-22, “Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts,” also known as an FBAR, in an effort to encourage more U.S. taxpayers to reveal their offshore holdings.

“Some taxpayers recently learned that they have an FBAR filing obligation, but they do not have sufficient time to gather the information necessary to properly file the FBAR by the June 30, 2009, due date,” wrote the IRS on its Web site. “Taxpayers who reported and paid tax on all their 2008 taxable income but only recently learned of their FBAR filing obligation and have insufficient time to gather the necessary information to complete the FBAR, should file the delinquent FBAR report according to the instructions and attach a statement explaining why the report is filed late.”
Link

The delinquent FBAR, along with a copy of the 2008 tax return, is supposed to be sent by Sept. 23 to the IRS’s Philadelphia Offshore Identification Unit.
sba9630 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2009, 11:05 PM   #156
sba9630
Pooh-Bah
 
sba9630's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: This space intentionally left blank
Posts: 4,511
Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

Quote:
Originally Posted by curtains View Post
IMO this poster is obviously correct, regardless of whether he is a professional or not. No honest taxpayer is ****ing going to jail and getting a 100k fine because they didn't understand to report a poker site as a foreign bank account, unless perhaps there is some insanely large money in this account.
Quote:
Originally Posted by curtains View Post
Russ is the one who said it's possible you'll go to jail and face a 100k fine even if you are otherwise an honest taxpayer, and you just completely contradicted him. I find it extremely irresponsible that he would do such a thing unless there is some reasonable grain of truth behind it, which I strongly don't believe that there is. I don't know why everyone here allows these constant fearmongering statements by him that I've seen for the past few years. I can't remember examples but I've responded to them in the past.
You can dislike it, you can term it "fearmongering" all you want, and you can have and express your OPINION on the situation. The FACT is, it's the law.

Do I think some poker player is going to Club Fed for ten years for not filing the FBAR? Unless he has been nailed for tax evasion, or some similar offense and/or has a criminal history a mile long, no, I don't THINK that would happen. I'm also not going to personally take that chance and will, as I always have, fill out the proper documentation and pay all taxes that I think are owed. If others don't care to do that, good luck to them.

IRS

Quote:
16. What is the statute of limitations for assessing civil penalties for violations of the FBAR requirements? Civil penalties can be assessed anytime up to six years after the date of the violation.

17. How long should account holders retain records of the foreign accounts?
Records of accounts required to be reported on an FBAR must be retained for a period of five years. Failure to maintain required records may result in civil penalties, criminal penalties, or both.

18. What happens if an account holder is required to file an FBAR and fails to do so? Failure to file an FBAR when required to do so may potentially result in civil penalties, criminal penalties, or both. If you learn you were required to file FBARs for earlier years, you should file the delinquent FBAR reports and attach a statement explaining why the reports are filed late. No penalty will be asserted if the IRS determines that the late filings were due to reasonable cause. Keep copies, for your record, of what you send.
Frequently Asked Questions (IRS) - May 6th, 2009

Quote:
14. What are some of the criminal charges I might face if I don't come in
under voluntary disclosure and the IRS finds me?


Possible criminal charges related to tax returns include tax evasion (26 U.S.C.
§ 7201), filing a false return (26 U.S.C. § 7206(1)) and failure to file an income
tax return (26 U.S.C. § 7203). The failure to file an FBAR and the filing of a false
FBAR are both violations that are subject to criminal penalties under 31 U.S.C.
§ 5322.

A person convicted of tax evasion is subject to a prison term of up to five years
and a fine of up to $250,000. Filing a false return subjects a person to a prison
term of up to three years and a fine of up to $250,000. A person who fails to file
a tax return is subject to a prison term of up to one year and a fine of up to
$100,000. Failing to file an FBAR subjects a person to a prison term of up to ten
years and criminal penalties of up to $500,000.
sba9630 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2009, 02:37 AM   #157
peachy
Pooh-Bah
 
peachy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Heaven...where else are angels from
Posts: 5,122
Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

Quote:
Originally Posted by jennaecks View Post
I got a similar response. I plan on sending a copy of the email and a letter explaining the accounts I am reporting are online poker accounts and that the sites won't provide any specific information.
Im a bit late on this as I didnt know there was a thread on it.

A few days ago my CPA (who does like no gambling stuff at all) caught this and advised me to file before tomorrow. Its a shame more CPAs didnt catch this and advise the same. Its better to file (which cannot hurt you) than to be sorry later. As to the fields people are unsure about, my CPA filled them out as unknown, so if you do not have the addresses I wouldnt worry, something is better than nothing. For account number or other designation he used my "screen name" and for financial institution the poker site was listed, and for account type other was marked and then listed as Poker Account. Again, something is better than nothing and at least you got them all the information you could before the deadline.

Quite a few of my poker friends have been audited lately, so I wouldnt play around with these issues. And just because you havent been yet doesnt meant you are "safe", keep in mind that the IRS has 7 YEARS to do so! Keep your records!!! I have connections in government and have a great CPA and lawyer....all of which have warned of the crack down coming for any area they can squeeze money from...gambling being one of these places. They are aware that gamblers keep very poor records, therefore it is easy for them to extract maximum money, fines, and penalties.

Just an example, if you can follow my nonsense rambling, lets say you win a million in a big tounry OR high stakes data base says you are up this BUT you only claimed 300k on your taxes and were 100% honest that 300k was your profit. Now you get audited, and claim TRUTHFULLY that people had pieces of you and you paid them (in CASH as most gamblers do). They dont care, you have to prove this to them OR you owe the tax on the other 700k that you cannot show any record of.....EASY pickenings for the IRS no?? I would think twice before giving my friends 100k in cash without something in writing because if they arent honest on their taxes and you need something saying you gave them that money how easy do you think it will be?? You are left holding the bag. Dont get yourself into these situations people. Keep good records and BE HONEST. And send in any forms (LIKE THE ONE IN THIS TREAD)....they are much more likely to work with someone who has been forthcoming with information and has attempted to do everything right as opposed to someone they feel has been sneaking money around.


Over the years we (my family) has dealt with the IRS on multiple occasions, ranging from estates to audits. The burden of proving anything is on you, and negligence or lack of knowledge is a laughable excuse to an agent. They will get every penny they can due to lack of your record keeping or just plain laziness in filing, ESPECIALLY in this economy!!!


If your CPA doesnt think this is important, or says its not clear etc. etc. (like some in this thread), or worse yet doesnt even KNOW about this....Id advise you to get a new CPA asap! There are very few citizens on the winning end vs the government, let alone the IRS, in taxing matters. Even if you have a valid case/reason, the cost and time alone is unreal. Dont put yourself in that position in the first place.






**I only got through a few pages of this so if this stuff has been clarified already I am sorry. A friend linked me to this after I warned him about this needing to be filed before tomorrow.
peachy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2009, 03:13 AM   #158
peachy
Pooh-Bah
 
peachy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Heaven...where else are angels from
Posts: 5,122
Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

For those of you claiming that filing this form is a red flag...trust me....the fact you file as a professional poker player/gambler is enough of a red flag IF they want to audit you. Id be much more worried about filing as this occupation on my taxes and NOT having this form filed as well. Again, easy pickens for the IRS to look at "professional poker player/gamblers" and see if this form is filed as well....ops its not filed...easy money in fines in 2 seconds for 0 work!!!!
peachy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2009, 12:17 PM   #159
novahunterpa
Pooh-Bah
 
novahunterpa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Triple Range Merging
Posts: 5,244
Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

Im not going to fill this out, no way im putting my screen name on a gov form.
novahunterpa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2009, 12:47 PM   #160
repulse
veteran
 
repulse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: VA
Posts: 3,066
Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

Quote:
Originally Posted by novahunterpa View Post
Im not going to fill this out, no way im putting my screen name on a gov form.
For people with embarrassing screen names, I imagine it's sufficient to instead put the email address associated with your account with the poker site. It is also a unique identifier of your account... then again, you can change it in the future, so maybe it's not OK. And if your email address is also embarrassing, then I guess you're out of luck!
repulse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2009, 03:42 PM   #161
beeschnuts
old hand
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,219
Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

So is the due date for this form still june 30th or was it changed to sept.23? Anyone know for sure?
beeschnuts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2009, 03:57 PM   #162
RonFezBuddy
old hand
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: TournamentPokerEdge
Posts: 1,690
Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

I filled it out and put my real name as my account name rather than my user ID. Seems like that's definitely a unique enough identifier if they wanted to look into it. Wasn't comfortable putting my screen name on there though.
RonFezBuddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2009, 04:16 PM   #163
jschell
adept
 
jschell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Working on working harder.
Posts: 830
Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

Quote:
Originally Posted by beeschnuts View Post
So is the due date for this form still june 30th or was it changed to sept.23? Anyone know for sure?
I'm not sure either, it still says June 30 on the IRS website.
jschell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2009, 04:27 PM   #164
beeschnuts
old hand
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,219
Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

I just called the Department of Treasury to ask about this. The person I talked to said that if the money in my poker account is held overseas, and it has exceeded 10,000$ in the past calendar year then I have to fill out this form. When I asked when it was due, she said it was due today but that I could send it in late as long as I added a note or statement as to why it was late. Im going to meet with my accoutant this Monday to have the form filled out and sent in with a statement as to why it was late.
beeschnuts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2009, 07:25 PM   #165
sba9630
Pooh-Bah
 
sba9630's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: This space intentionally left blank
Posts: 4,511
Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

Quote:
Originally Posted by beeschnuts View Post
So is the due date for this form still june 30th or was it changed to sept.23? Anyone know for sure?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sba9630 View Post
Link

The delinquent FBAR, along with a copy of the 2008 tax return, is supposed to be sent by Sept. 23 to the IRS’s Philadelphia Offshore Identification Unit.
.
sba9630 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2009, 12:58 PM   #166
LanceFire
centurion
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 196
Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

Is there anyone with a good list of steps required when deciding to file as a professional gambler? I'll lead off with some of the steps I've taken which I feel confident are correct:

1. Fill out form 1040-ES for estimated taxes and get your quarterly estimated tax payment amounts. I used free downloaded software from taxact.com, printed out the form and put it in my home files.
2. Register at EFTPS.gov to pay your estimated taxes quarterly when they are due.
3. Put together an excel document where you log each session and your win loss by date. You'll need your total wins, total losses, and the net result for tax purposes.
4. Put together an excel, or a sheet in your excel from item #3, where you record all expenses related to your poker profession. Some examples would be a computer used just for poker, new monitor, printer paper, part of your internet bill, poker books, etc. You can then use the total of these expenses as a writeoff when you file your taxes.

Where I'm hazy:
1. EIN/TIN: do I need one? If so, do I have to then put poker checks into a separate bank account registered to this EIN/TIN?
2. I need an EIN/TIN to get a solo 401k. Piggybacks with question #1.
3. Do I fill out forms 11-C or 730?
4. This FBAR stuff, where do I fill it out, anybody get audited who either did fill it out or did not and results?
LanceFire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2009, 07:12 PM   #167
conebone69
banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 296
Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

how are they gonna check to make sure the amount you have in your poker account is real? poker sites aren't like a bank where they can make 100% sure. whats the IRS gonna do, email audit FTP and and FTPDoug will send them proof you have of $100567.49 in your account if thats how much you reported?
conebone69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2009, 08:34 PM   #168
sba9630
Pooh-Bah
 
sba9630's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: This space intentionally left blank
Posts: 4,511
Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

Quote:
Originally Posted by conebone69 View Post
how are they gonna check to make sure the amount you have in your poker account is real? poker sites aren't like a bank where they can make 100% sure. whats the IRS gonna do, email audit FTP and and FTPDoug will send them proof you have of $100567.49 in your account if thats how much you reported?
How do they check a bank account in Belize or Panama?
sba9630 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2009, 01:43 AM   #169
Rampage_Jackson
veteran
 
Rampage_Jackson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: i knew it would happen
Posts: 2,773
Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

Can someone explain how a poker site can classify as a bank account when:

1) Zero interest is accrued

2) The money is not 100% safe. I mean say you write you have 100k on a poker account and then your account gets hacked, what then...

3) The money isn't insured even by the most basic standards.

4) They don't have your SS #
Rampage_Jackson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2009, 04:06 AM   #170
sba9630
Pooh-Bah
 
sba9630's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: This space intentionally left blank
Posts: 4,511
Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rampage_Jackson View Post
Can someone explain how a poker site can classify as a bank account when:

1) Zero interest is accrued

2) The money is not 100% safe. I mean say you write you have 100k on a poker account and then your account gets hacked, what then...

3) The money isn't insured even by the most basic standards.

4) They don't have your SS #
From the top of form TD F 90-22.1:

REPORT OF FOREIGN BANK
AND FINANCIAL ACCOUNTS
sba9630 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2009, 07:49 AM   #171
Robin Foolz
adept
 
Robin Foolz's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Celebrating TheYear of The Donkey
Posts: 1,182
Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

Quote:
Originally Posted by sba9630 View Post
From the top of form TD F 90-22.1:

REPORT OF FOREIGN BANK
AND FINANCIAL ACCOUNTS
please cite a tax court case, federal court case, treasury regulation or at least any irs pronouncement/interpretation document (e.g. letter ruling) that clearly indicates that online poker deposits/winnings held are financial accounts for the purposes of the form in question.
Robin Foolz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2009, 01:58 PM   #172
joeker
grinder
 
joeker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 451
Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rampage_Jackson View Post
Can someone explain how a poker site can classify as a bank account when:

1) Zero interest is accrued

2) The money is not 100% safe.
Not even from our own government
joeker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2009, 01:58 PM   #173
sba9630
Pooh-Bah
 
sba9630's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: This space intentionally left blank
Posts: 4,511
Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Foolz View Post
please cite a tax court case, federal court case, treasury regulation or at least any irs pronouncement/interpretation document (e.g. letter ruling) that clearly indicates that online poker deposits/winnings held are financial accounts for the purposes of the form in question.
Please site one of the above that says they aren't.
sba9630 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2009, 08:21 PM   #174
a nonymous
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,248
Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

I saw the article linked above, but can someone please link me to an IRS page that shows the deadline has been extended to Sept 23?

ty
a nonymous is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2009, 05:11 AM   #175
Robin Foolz
adept
 
Robin Foolz's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Celebrating TheYear of The Donkey
Posts: 1,182
Re: Reporting Poker Sites as Foreign Accounts Catch All

Quote:
Originally Posted by sba9630 View Post
Please site one of the above that says they aren't.
by that logic temporary lockers at theme parks and safes in hotel rooms
(that meet the monies threshold) in europe also must be reported... because there's no legal and administrative record that says they aren't.
Robin Foolz is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:41 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online