^^^makes sense to me lawdude

PS also probably can't be seen openly violating the laws of other nations, while currently or wanting to being licensed in others.

I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!! IM GOING TO SNAP!!! Nothing works. What is wrong with this world. Maybe if poker players were hostile people we would get more rights, I wish i had a million clones of me i would riot all over washington. How much does your own country cost? Phil Ivey buy us one.. One time, all this calling our congressman dont work none of this **** works were all ****ed I cant stand by and watch this happen anymore. I think about black rights, woman rights, gay rights, rights to vote etc all the movements through time were man had to take a strong stand. Is that what its going to take. A poker rights movement of millions of poker players marching in washington. The people have a voice but they never listen to it when its not a mob. I never thought Id want to denounce my citizenship and move out of this country. Land of the free my ass! I dont think ranting is gonna help but it sure makes me feel better. came across this video reminded me of how i could sum up our government

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZtxBZ9D5sI

This is the letter I'm going to send. I know there are arguments about taxation and corruption that could be made but I don't want to mention those. I just want to let the lawmakers know my position.

Elected Officials,

I am writing to you in light of the recent Washington Supreme Court decision to uphold legislation which criminalizes the play of real-money poker online by making it a Class C felony. Having read through the opinion given, it is clear that the justices were unwilling to deem the legislation to have been unconstitutional.

That is not, however, why I write to you today.

Instead, I write advocating reform to the way our state regulates this game of skill. Our state has little problem with adults playing poker in a live setting but, for some reason, balks at the idea of the same game being played on the Internet. This seems plainly hypocritical.

Beyond that distinction, this decision comes at a time when poker betting limits in our state have actually been more than doubled as part of an experimental program. Combined with the fact that it requires more money and time to play the game in a card room, it's abundantly clear that the state is not worried about people losing (or gaining) too much money playing poker. What isn't clear, though, is why our state, known for its technology presence, is so reluctant to allow adults to make the same decisions on the Internet that they can in person.

I encourage you to take action with your fellow lawmakers and decriminalize this game of skill which provides entertainment for many and comprises entire living wages for some.

I read about this at work today and I've been getting more and more pissed the more I thought about it.

I've seen mention that an initiative might be the quickest way to undo this terrible law. I think that if the PPA (or anyone else) starts one, we'd be able to drum up a lot more support if it's a more generic (and more useful imo) 'state can't outlaw anything online that is legal in person" issue rather than a "make online poker legal" issue. It would also be more beneficial for the future, as who knows what else might be made illegal online only?

Filing Initiatives and Referenda in Washington State

1) Write a pro internet gambling proposition and file it with the Secretary of State
2) Contact PPA/PokerStars/Individual donors for donations
3) Hire signature gatherers
4) Submit the requisite number of signatures to get the proposition on the next ballot
5) Voters repeal law by overwhelming majority

This is a much easier process for changing things than writing representatives

I feel like I'm in a horror movie and ever door that is opened has gruesome politicians waiting to steal peoples lives. I also know the next door could steal my life. Worst yet, some gruesome politicians may steal the lives of us all in the end. I hurt for you Washington. Being first isn't always a good thing. It is a sad day.

Thanks, I just read it over and I understand that they don't want people "gambling" over the internet because when your in a casino you will obviously be making better choices with your money.
But how can horse racing become excluded from this law, and why can't poker do the same thing?

"In 2004, advance deposit wagering for horse racing
was authorized by the Washington State
Legislature. This is a separate law from the
Internet gambling prohibition. The Horse Racing
Commission has three licensed vendors that
provide advance deposit wagering and these sites
are legal"


Enforcement
"Enforcement is focused on larger, higher level
Internet gambling activities, such as gambling sites
and service providers.
Players gambling on the Internet, whether playing
poker, slots or other gambling games, run a risk of
a felony conviction. If players’ names appear in an
operator’s seized records, the Gambling
Commission would likely send the player a warning
letter, notifying them that betting on the Internet is a
felony. If a player’s name appears again, charges
may be filed. There is not an active campaign
against regular players."

At least they'll give us a warning first.

What is Gambling?
"Gambling involves three elements: prize, chance
and consideration (entry fee, wager, or anything of
value).
If one of these elements is removed, it is no longer
a gambling activity. For example, if you pay a fee
to play a game of chance (such as poker,
blackjack, bingo, roulette, craps, slots, etc.) for a
prize, it is a gambling activity."

Absolutely ridiculous. Time for Patty Murray and her friends to go work elsewhere. It's election time, let's make sure those on the wrong side of "yes" are voted out

sorry washington.. thats terrible

I suggest that any online poker initiative draft language be vetted openly in this forum. There are probably a dozen lawyers that post here that will look at it and make suggestions. You do NOT want anything as terrible as Tuff Fish's initiative from a couple years back. We can come up with something good and reasonable.

**** YOU WASHINGTON

Not to keep keep complaining but Seattle lost the Sonics and now online poker whats next?

I think a good response (maybe the PPA could organize something) would be to have a huge angry mob show up the state capital building on a random weekday. I don't know how many people would be feasible but if you can some how get in the tens of thousands, I think that would exert a lot more pressure than a bunch of letters and phone calls.

If you could somehow pull this off without alerting the media ahead of time, I think it strike a great blow for poker players in WA. 30,000 people with signs coming out of nowhere yelling and screaming on a random Tuesday morning catching the politicians totally off guard would be awesome and could potentially make national news.

That would be nice, but I don't have much faith in poker players after showing up at a rally in Mass (there was well under 100 there). Maybe this time would be different since you guys actually lost something.

Best to keep it simple both for poker players, and the mainstream voters who don't care one way or the other.

Something that just says Washington General Statute X Section Y (Online Gambling Made a Criminal Offense) is hereby repealed.

A straight-up repeal is more likely to get the support of people who don't care about online poker but don't like stupid laws than some detailed online gambling bill IMO.

Easy sell. Special interests, blah blah blah. Only state in the country with such a law, blah blah blah. Could subject millions of tax-paying law-abiding WA citizens to prison time as a result of recreational activity conducted in the privacy of their home, etc. etc.


Remove the bad law(s) from the books. Don't go trying to make a new law to replace it.

Maybe find some other dumb hugely unpopular WA state law to piggyback it with and have the ballot initiative be for a straight up repeal of both. That would be a guaranteed winner IMO.

I like your thinking

I think players in Washington State should do what they can, write legislators, protest, whatever else i'm not think of. But don't you think everyone (I know some did) should have got together long before now and done something, it's a little late and an election year to get something done this year in WA. Players in WA should have acted in force years ago as some players in WA did.

If Stars just kind of waited this out until the WA state Supreme Court ruled on this issue, why not continue with more of the same until SCOTUS has its say?

Why is now the time that they decided to disrupt the status quo. The law on the books is the same as it has been for years, and the constitutionality of the law is still being challenged, right? Of course a state court isn't going to rule against the state in a dormant commerce clause case.

If it's going to take 2 years to get a final legal disposition on this, stars shouldn't have to drastically alter their practices in the mean time.


Also, when this case makes it's first step into the Federal arena, is there any chance of getting some (carefully handpicked, obviously) lower-mid level federal judge to issue an injunction blocking WA from enforcing the law until the case has been finally decided?

It's a very bad idea to make the initiative cover two subjects. Most states have rules on initiatives that they can only cover one subject or they are unconstitutional. By memory, Washington has that rule. The initiative should be just to repeal the measure.

-- Russ Fox

Excellent post!

That sucks. I was already starting to write out my initiative that repeals the online poker ban and also makes it illegal for convicted sex offenders to run private daycare centers. "You're either with us, or you're with the pedophiles" had a nice ring to it.

It's not illegal already? That's shocking.

I live in Seattle, and online poker is my hobby. (I am fortunate to have a very good "real-life" job.) I play often enough to maintain Gold VIP status, and I play well enough to stay in the black playing 1/2 and 2/4 Full-ring Limit Hold'em. I've been on Pokerstars for roughly 3 years.

Let me stress how much this TOTALLY SUCK!

I had anticipated that this day might come, but it still is a significant disappointment that it is now here. I don't blame Pokerstars; Washington State players are a tiny fraction of their overall business, and they have done the risk/benefit analysis and concluded it is not in their best interest to continue to allow play from the one state with the most clearcut, specific outright ban on online poker. I don't blame Lee Rousso or the PPA for litigating this; I still think we have a decent shot in SCOTUS, but that's years away, and a dice roll. Right now, we're holding 8-3 offsuit, and the state has pocket 7s.

There is no way that the state legislature is going to overturn our stupid law; the tribal casinos have them (and the governor) in their pocket, and they continue to view online poker as a threat. That point has some validity; I haven't been in a brick & mortar poker room in over 2 years. The reason is because the game conditions are horrible (2x rake, stinky people, horrible table selection, personal time and expense to get there and back), and it is much more efficient for me to play online.

I appreciate the support from the rest of 2+2. In the short run, I'm just done. FTP will ban us, too, and so I guess I'll put this hobby on hold for a while.

I do think that the highest probability of success is a SIMPLE initiative. Overturn this specific law. No new legislation is needed. Get the signatures (not hard, but expensive), get on the ballot, and I think we'd have a good chance to win.

Until then, I'll go back to reading the forums, and trying to improve my game that way. I'm basically a lurker here, but I have learned TONS from this site, and my game has improved considerably. Plus, I get a kick out of all you guys. Thank you.

Today sucks, but so did the UIGEA passing, the Neteller fiasco, and a whole bunch of other things. I will continue my PPA membership, and I'll continue to do what I can to help elect supportive legislators. (Unfortunately, I live in a district where the state legislative races are not competitive, as this is a one-party ("D") location.)

I continue to hope that the long-term scenario has a good chance to be a positive one.

AMerica, land of te freee!!

Knowingly and deliberately is a great point given the draft licensing legislation. Thanks for the post. I think this has as much to do with future licensing as anything.