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Poker Legislation & PPA Discussion hosted by Rich Muny Discussions of various poker-related laws and steps players can take to push for better laws.

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Old 06-17-2017, 12:45 PM   #1
nzautra
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How do Ignition and ACR legally allow US Players?

I've been playing a lot of volume on Ignition and ACR for the past two years. After relocating to MX to play SCOOP, and subsequently explaining to friends and family why I relocated, they often follow this up with, "but weren't you playing online in the states before? How does that work?"

I explain to them what I think I know about the situation: it is not illegal for US players to play on sites like ACR and Ignition; ACR and Ignition 'interpret the laws differently'; or whether what ACR and Ignition are doing is legal is somewhat ambiguous. After several attempts at this, however, I've realized I don't actually know how ACR and Ignition legally operate while allowing US players.

It's also not particularly comforting to have personally experienced some questionable actions with both sites: seeing credit card deposits show up on statements as totally bogus purchases, or for ACR customer service reps to instruct you to tell your bank that the deposits you request are for "sports equipment."

So what's the real story? Any legal scholars out there who can fill us in, or point me to the actual, well-defined reasons ACR and Ignition can still operate?
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Old 06-17-2017, 03:51 PM   #2
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Re: How do Ignition and ACR legally allow US Players?

you've described some pretty explicit bank fraud itt
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Old 06-17-2017, 04:04 PM   #3
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Re: How do Ignition and ACR legally allow US Players?

While there is still some "gray area" for U.S. players depending on in which state the player is located, the type of banking deceptions by the sites you describe are exactly the sort of illegal dodges in which PokerStars and Full Tilt were engaging. I doubt there is any jurisdiction in the U.S. where the actions of these sites in taking US players and hiding their banking transactions would pass a legal litmus test. Bottom line, what ACR and Ignition are doing is not legal in the U.S. But they aren't located in the U.S. and continue to evade U.S. law enforcement. So far.

Whether or not your play from the U.S. is legal depends on the laws of the state where you are located, and the legal interpretation of those laws:

http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Law-Summary/
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Old 06-17-2017, 04:07 PM   #4
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Re: How do Ignition and ACR legally allow US Players?

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Originally Posted by ScreaminAsian View Post
you've described some pretty explicit bank fraud itt
On account of those sites? Perhaps. As I have read elsewhere, this is nothing new. I'm certainly not the first to notice these actions by both Ignition and ACR. That's why both sites are now pushing for bitcoin. As a poker player, I don't think I'm doing a service to the community to pretend as if this stuff isn't happening.
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Old 06-17-2017, 04:27 PM   #5
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Re: How do Ignition and ACR legally allow US Players?

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Originally Posted by PokerXanadu View Post
While there is still some "gray area" for U.S. players depending on in which state the player is located, the type of banking deceptions by the sites you describe are exactly the sort of illegal dodges in which PokerStars and Full Tilt were engaging. I doubt there is any jurisdiction in the U.S. where the actions of these sites in taking US players and hiding their banking transactions would pass a legal litmus test. Bottom line, what ACR and Ignition are doing is not legal in the U.S. But they aren't located in the U.S. and continue to evade U.S. law enforcement. So far.

Whether or not your play from the U.S. is legal depends on the laws of the state where you are located, and the legal interpretation of those laws:

http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Law-Summary/
Thank you for your very helpful response. I can only imagine that the risk these sites face for utilizing these deceptive banking practices must either be incredibly low, or non-existemt. Otherwise, why would they continue to conduct business this way?
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Old 06-18-2017, 11:57 AM   #6
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Re: How do Ignition and ACR legally allow US Players?

It doesn't take a legal scholar.

Offering gambling to players in states in which you are not licensed to do so is illegal. So those sites are violating state and federal (IGBA) gambling laws by offering games to those players.

Now, how would you prosecute a case against an offshore operator? That is where it gets tricky. Calvin Ayre (created Bodog, which spun off to Bovada, and then sold off to Ignition) is still wanted by the US authorities, but there is little chance they ever see him.

Making the sites stop is difficult. The only real way is to intercept the money. That is why UIGEA was established, to make intercepting the money easier. But you need a snitch, someone who can testify to payments, and the ways those payments are disguised ("Black Friday Chad" - http://diamondflushpoker.com/2012/11...ie-speaks-out/)

Ignition and ACR seem to be moving toward full Bitcoin processing, indicating that traditional means are becoming less viable.

In the end, those sites will fail, and bugger off with the money, as we've seen so many do



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Originally Posted by nzautra View Post
I've been playing a lot of volume on Ignition and ACR for the past two years. After relocating to MX to play SCOOP, and subsequently explaining to friends and family why I relocated, they often follow this up with, "but weren't you playing online in the states before? How does that work?"

I explain to them what I think I know about the situation: it is not illegal for US players to play on sites like ACR and Ignition; ACR and Ignition 'interpret the laws differently'; or whether what ACR and Ignition are doing is legal is somewhat ambiguous. After several attempts at this, however, I've realized I don't actually know how ACR and Ignition legally operate while allowing US players.

It's also not particularly comforting to have personally experienced some questionable actions with both sites: seeing credit card deposits show up on statements as totally bogus purchases, or for ACR customer service reps to instruct you to tell your bank that the deposits you request are for "sports equipment."

So what's the real story? Any legal scholars out there who can fill us in, or point me to the actual, well-defined reasons ACR and Ignition can still operate?
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Old 06-18-2017, 04:24 PM   #7
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Re: How do Ignition and ACR legally allow US Players?

Legalize online poker and everyone wins. US Government at its finest right now.
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Old 08-27-2017, 09:46 PM   #8
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Re: How do Ignition and ACR legally allow US Players?

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Legalize online poker and everyone wins. US Government at its finest right now.
It has almost been 7 years since "Black Friday" and we are no closer than we were April 15, 2011

ABSOLUTE FARCE the US Govt and people like the PPA supposedly "fighting" for our rights
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Old 08-28-2017, 12:45 AM   #9
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Re: How do Ignition and ACR legally allow US Players?

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It has almost been 7 years since "Black Friday" and we are no closer than we were April 15, 2011

ABSOLUTE FARCE the US Govt and people like the PPA supposedly "fighting" for our rights
well, we will never be where we were before that date, so accept that already.

This isn't a fight for 'our rights' as there is no right to online poker. Neither is it a fight for 'our freedoms,' if it ever was. This is a fight about access to markets. It is the industry's fight, and their concerns are all that matters to them.

But since the industry is the ONLY source of any lobbying effort at all, who are we to complain?
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Old 08-28-2017, 04:02 AM   #10
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Re: How do Ignition and ACR legally allow US Players?

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well, we will never be where we were before that date, so accept that already.

This isn't a fight for 'our rights' as there is no right to online poker. Neither is it a fight for 'our freedoms,' if it ever was. This is a fight about access to markets. It is the industry's fight, and their concerns are all that matters to them.

But since the industry is the ONLY source of any lobbying effort at all, who are we to complain?
There is where your liberal educated brainwashed mind is WRONG !

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness." --Declaration of Independence as originally written by Thomas Jefferson, 1776. ME 1:29, Papers 1:315

As Roy Jones Jr so eloquently said: "Ya'll Must've Forgot"
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Old 08-28-2017, 08:20 PM   #11
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Re: How do Ignition and ACR legally allow US Players?

Ya I know I know... that pesky old outdated document called the Constitution that no liberal fascist or Corporate mongrel with a vested interest in this area wants to hear about
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Old 08-29-2017, 08:40 AM   #12
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Re: How do Ignition and ACR legally allow US Players?

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There is where your liberal educated brainwashed mind is WRONG !

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness." --Declaration of Independence as originally written by Thomas Jefferson, 1776. ME 1:29, Papers 1:315

As Roy Jones Jr so eloquently said: "Ya'll Must've Forgot"
So have you stepped up to alter your government? Or is complaining on an echo chamber forum the best you could muster?
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Old 08-29-2017, 08:43 AM   #13
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Re: How do Ignition and ACR legally allow US Players?

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Ya I know I know... that pesky old outdated document called the Constitution that no liberal fascist or Corporate mongrel with a vested interest in this area wants to hear about
oh spare me. the idiocy of your post makes it hardly worth a response, but ....

The Constitution does NOT guarantee you a right to any and all commerce of your choosing. If it did, there could never be any consumer protection, no recourse against fraud, no regulations what so ever

But beyond, the reason online poker is illegal is because PEOPLE wanted it illegal, and they petitioned their government to make it so. Meanwhile, online poker players complained on forums, echo chambers, and have tantrums like little kids.

You want online poker? Write a bill. Get your state representatives to introduce it. Build support for your idea, and effect change. That is how the system works.

You don't get to sit on high as if you're special and complain because nobody else is making it happen for you. That is why we are where we are now so many, many years after Black Friday.

To date, only ONE player in this entire nation got a bill introduced in his state's legislature. Only one player in 50 states stepped up, and he couldn't drum up enough support amongst the players themselves, nor the industry to move the ball.

And since players aren't willing to get involved, to really make a difference, then it is left solely to the industry to do whatever it is it wants to do.

The industry has different desires than players do. The industry has no interest in Nebraska, Kansas, Wisconsin, Alaska, etc. They can't make any money in those states as stand-alone markets. They aren't even trying.

The only states that have a chance for online poker are those with large commercial gaming industries, and possibly CA one day (don't hold your breath).
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Old 08-29-2017, 08:44 AM   #14
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Re: How do Ignition and ACR legally allow US Players?

If you have been watching this fight at all, you should have noticed how much it is changed, and how little what players want matters to anyone
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Old 08-29-2017, 11:04 AM   #15
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Re: How do Ignition and ACR legally allow US Players?

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If you have been watching this fight at all, you should have noticed how much it is changed, and how little what players want matters to anyone
I can agree on a couple of things you stated:

#1- poker players do not contribute very much effort toward the fight. We are poker players and not freedom fighters. Myself included, thus why your other statement above has happened.

#2- The "system" you mentioned is corrupt and immoral in many ways. Who ever gets together with the loudest voice and most money should get to make laws that everyone must follow ? BULL**** !

We are ENTITLED as Americans to "certain inalienable rights" After I pay my bills and taxes as a good citizen if I want to compete online with MY F*cking hard earned money vs other tax paying citizens I believe it should be our right to do so ! PERIOD

The law now works as a tool for those who can wield it's power to their own agenda rather than to protect citizens and their freedoms/liberty.
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Old 08-29-2017, 11:25 PM   #16
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Re: How do Ignition and ACR legally allow US Players?

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The law now works as a tool for those who can wield it's power to their own agenda rather than to protect citizens and their freedoms/liberty.
Honestly, I think that is a weak copout. The world is run by those who show up.

Government 'of the people, by the people, for the people' has a common thread, do you see it? People have to participate, but most, an overwhelming majority, simply choose not to. For whatever reason, it makes no difference.

But you can't cry about those who wield the power if you've never even talked to your representatives about an issue this important to you
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Old 08-30-2017, 09:21 AM   #17
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Re: How do Ignition and ACR legally allow US Players?

You still COMPLETELY miss the point about the Constitution and the first paragraph guaranteeing certain rights based on principle.

You like a world where whoever lobbies the most for their cause gets their way no matter what that way is ?

TWISTED views indeed !
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Old 09-01-2017, 05:10 PM   #18
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Re: How do Ignition and ACR legally allow US Players?

The quote you posted is actually from the Declaration of Independence; not the United States Constitution.

The Declaration of Independence doesn't have any binding legal significance; it has no force of law.

And Curtinsea is most certainly correct that there is no right to online poker provided in the US Constitution or elsewhere.
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Old 09-01-2017, 06:55 PM   #19
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Re: How do Ignition and ACR legally allow US Players?

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The quote you posted is actually from the Declaration of Independence; not the United States Constitution.

The Declaration of Independence doesn't have any binding legal significance; it has no force of law.

And Curtinsea is most certainly correct that there is no right to online poker provided in the US Constitution or elsewhere.
There should be !

Only one way things like this were ever solved TBh. Whoever had the most and biggest guns. Otherwise lawyers, lobbyists, chrony corporate moguls just make laws to fit their own personal agendas. And suggesting that this is ok, is in my opinion morally corrupt.

And furthermore the Declaration of Independence in word and spirit echoes itself into the Constitution !

We ARE entitled to certain rights. Not the ones you or curtinsea or corporation lawyers decide but ones that are inherently granted by our creator !

My after tax money, not directly harming another, used to compete vs others in the same situation consenting to play poker should be my right.
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Old 09-01-2017, 07:34 PM   #20
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Re: How do Ignition and ACR legally allow US Players?

I'm not arguing with you about whether or not online poker should be legal or about morality or religion.

Just pointing out that you weren't quoting the Constitution (but rather the Declaration of Independence, which does not have the force of law) and the Constitution certainly doesn't provide a right to online poker.

Also, the Declaration of Indeprndence was written before the Constitution, so it can't be echoing the Constitution. I'm not sure what you're trying to say there.
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Old 09-01-2017, 07:42 PM   #21
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Re: How do Ignition and ACR legally allow US Players?

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I'm not arguing with you about whether or not online poker should be legal or about morality or religion.

Just pointing out that you weren't quoting the Constitution (but rather the Declaration of Independence, which does not have the force of law) and the Constitution certainly doesn't provide a right to online poker.

Also, the Declaration of Independence was written before the Constitution, so it can't be echoing the Constitution. I'm not sure what you're trying to say there.
I may not be as educated as you but I am aware of this lol... I said that the Constitution is written "in spirit" by a lot of the same men with the same intent that an over bearing Government is against what we believe in terms of basic right that can be inferred from such documents and SHOULD be echoed in all laws !

Once again what I am saying is that I SHOULD be able to play online poker. Fine, regulate and fairly tax it. WHATEVER ! Just get out of the way and let us citizens enjoy certain rights such as spending my hard earned after tax money the way I want to. (within REASONABLE ethical boundaries of course)
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Old 09-01-2017, 07:53 PM   #22
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Re: How do Ignition and ACR legally allow US Players?

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Just get out of the way and let us citizens enjoy certain rights such as spending my hard earned after tax money the way I want to. (within REASONABLE ethical boundaries of course)
There's the rub. The "ethical boundaries" are a matter of opinion, and it has officially been the opinion of the Republican party that gambling crosses the line. As we have a representative government, the politicians get to vote on these matters, not the people. I agree with your sentiments, but it has not just been a matter of vested interests and political contributions. There has also been a philosophical opposition to online poker at work in the government playing the same hand.
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Old 09-01-2017, 08:12 PM   #23
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Re: How do Ignition and ACR legally allow US Players?

In response to SamuraiPlaya's post 2 up:

Most people probably wouldn't consider access to online poker to be a "basic right". The Bill of Rights in the Constitution does guarantee certain rights, but it hasn't been interpreted to include access to online poker. The government can make laws to make playing and/or providing online poker illegal; it doesn't violate the Constitution.

But I do agree with you that online poker should be legal.
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Old 09-01-2017, 08:15 PM   #24
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Re: How do Ignition and ACR legally allow US Players?

Xanadu, lego, curtinsea...

I realize we all probably want the same thing just different ways of expressing it I imagine.

But me getting on an online poker forum and flame wars with other poker players is pretty goofy to say the least. Sorry guys, here's to hoping someone, somewhere in power can have a moment of reason and convince others in power to fix this mess that obviously is insignificant compared to other more important things our leaders need to fix but DAMMIT it is important to me ! sigh
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Old 09-01-2017, 08:23 PM   #25
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Re: How do Ignition and ACR legally allow US Players?

Yea. Just saying making a Constitution argument won't work because there are no protections for it in the Constitution. Have to appeal to representatives and legislators to vote how you want and at elections vote for the ones who will.


Seems more likely to progress at State levels at the moment I think. Depends what State you are in of course. Probably won't ever go anywhere in UT I would guess as an example.

NJ, NV and DE have it. NY and PA have bills pending I think. I don't know if it is currently on the radar of any other states.
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