LOL thread

Agreed that the Federal fight is over for now and hopefully forever but my contention was/and is that the PPA was willing to "settle" at the Federal level basically conceding that it was better than nothing but I completely disagree and have all along.

So now that we begin our strategies at the State levels are we simply going to sit back and let the Elites do or try at th State level what they did at the Federal level ?

I say no ! If the PPA will change their stance and refuse to just accept any bill that might have a chance and actually fight for a free and open market with fair regulation then I will support them again.

Please lets just not accept "whatever we can get", that is not how this nation was built. We have to fight for what is right and what is fair and what is best for the masses and not let the elitists tell us us differently.

^ typical response from a desensitized american just trolling and rofl'ing about life... And we wonder why Govts are getting bigger and more powerful and more overbearing

I don't particularly understand. The government doesn't get to decide who can own a site, but sites have to "qualify"? Who decides what the criteria for qualification is?

I think some of your ideas may need to be fleshed out some more.


And I think the chances of internet poker, or any gambling, being legal and not being regulated at all, or being regulated in an extremely limited manner, is right around 0%. All legal gambling of which I am aware is regulated and not in too limited a manner. I know you have been stating that they should just be allowed to open up and serve customers without government interference like other businesses do. But I think that most, if not all, industries in America actually are regulated in one way or another.

So I think that if what you really want and are talking about is legal online gambling without regulation or with extremely limited regulation, then I think that you will have to admit to yourself that you will never get it during your lifetime and who knows how long it will be after that before it comes into existence, if it ever does which is not the direction the world seems to be heading.

But you might be able to get legal online gambling with more regulation.



Which specific parts of the Kyl/Reid bill did you have problems with? I haven't actually seen what exactly you disliked about it.

Lego,

If you read some of my previous posts I covered much of what you are asking.

- Most industries are not heavily regulated except for something like alcohol. If I want to own a bar all I do is apply for a license and as long as all the requirements are met I pay a fee and get one. (not going to go into all the requirements, some areas are more difficult to obtain one than others due to limits on the amount of licenses per/that area. So even then it is still not that difficult.

As far as Kyle/Reid it is now irrelevant but are you even serious ? Just the fact that it called for restrictions on perspective sites that could enter the market says it all.

And lastly you said in a world moving toward this direction of heavy Govt regulated control ? I doubt you have read one word of my OP. THAT is exactly what I am talking about ! The direction we are moving is wrong and we need to fight for our liberties and fight for open and free marketplaces and fight against heavy Govt influence and control.

Most industries sell goods and the competitive consumer market largely keeps them in line. Yet they still need to be regulated by government in many aspects for public health and welfare - things like employee and product safety. Imagine if the auto industry did not have to issue government ordered safety recalls - there would be a lot more consumer injuries and deaths due to design and manufacture defects. Bars and restaurants are government monitored for cleanliness, among other things, and are subject to labor laws and regulations that protect their employees from abuses.

Service industries tend to be heavily regulated by state and local governments to protect employees and consumers. Ever have a new roof put on by an unlicensed contractor? Would you use an electrician who doesn't have a license to re-wire your house? Care to have your hair cut by someone without training and a license? Go to a doctor who hasn't a degree nor license to practice? A lawyer who hasn't passed the state bar?

Industries which are involved in large amounts of money transfers and hold customer funds are highly regulated by the federal government, for the control of organized crime, protection of consumer funds and health of the financial system. The pitfalls of an unregulated financial market and unregulated financial industries are rife and obvious.

Letting it all fall to market forces is about the worst thing you can do for consumers. Owners and companies do not operate for the good of the consumer on their own, even in the face of open market competition. Free market forces are not enough to force them to, as shown over and over again by historical example.

The ideal of a completely free market being the best possible world is about as silly as the ideal of a completely socialist society. They sound good on paper, but fail in implementation because people do not act selflessly for the good of all.

There is a necessary and vital role for government regulation and Internet poker is one industry that begs for it, to protect the players. One need only read the unending revelations of poker site scandals as found in the Internet Poker forum to discover why.

This doesn't mean that I support the Reid/Kyl bill - I don't. And certainly you have some good points of how to approach state-by-state legislation. You just go overboard in demanding "freedom" imo: 'no regulation' does not equate to good for the consumer.

Excellent feedback Xanadu but I really am not say no regulation, only limited regulation. I agree markets and business need to be held accountable to certain business standards and to do that there has to be bodies/branches of the Gov't that does this but in terms of online poker I suggest this is done state by state and it is a limited amount of control and influence in the Market.

Quick example:

- We the people of the State of Ohio put together Legislation allowing online poker to be completely legal in our State.

- We make a list of set rules and regulations that are fair and balanced that says any person or business can open a site in our State as long as they meet the requirements.(details of those requirements are also fair and balanced and when I have more time I will draft an initial idea for the list). The Ohio land based sites pay a set yearly license fee as well as standard corporate taxes as well as employees of that site following the same laws all workers in our state follow.

-Outside the US sites can apply for a license and be accepted on a year to year basis where they also will pay a fee(perhaps slightly higher than in state sites(details determined later as well) and they will agree to be completely transparent in terms of players winnings and losses so that Ohio citizens will pay a normal tax on winnings at years end. States that follow the same model will enjoy a multi-State/multi-international player pool which is good for everyone involved.

-All sites will also be required to pay a federal license fee yearly as well as an agreed upon tax based on the amount of business/traffic that they obtain from each State. DO NOT tell me that this is too difficult ! We live in an age of advanced communication and technology and these things would be very easy to set up.

-The entire thing would and should be complete public record and transparent for all the obvious and fair reasons.

This thing could be done and it could solve a lot of issues and it is very fair. It gives players a competitive arena to choose from many sites/options, it opens the market to allow competition to drive advancement and customer service which would also be good for the customer. It also would generate tax revenues at the State and Federal levels by Fees and corporate taxes from the sites as well as jobs created and income tax generated from winning players as well as stimulate the economies and generate new markets from advertising and partnerships that would be created. A new poker boom like no other would be created !

It is a solvable equation as I said before but not when there are the variables of big corporations and politicians want all the of it to themselves !



And it is not about poker, it is being willing to die if you have to in order to not allow these special self-serving interest groups, big corporations and Gov't to tell us what we can and cannot do with our money ! Which is exactly what is happening here..

Or more people could become more politically active.

but if all the people who oppose the self-serving interest groups die, who will then fight their fight? Will the self-serving interest groups not be unopposed?

PokerStars will accept funds from most of the countries on the planet, including the "communist and socialist" ones.

Here's the thing: You are talking about a whole system of government and how you would like to see it change, or go back to the way it once was. Most of us who post and belong to the PPA do so b/c we would like to play internet poker, and we are not in a position to wish it into being an open system where one can just open a site.

You can try that - open a poker site -- see how long it lasts in the US, and if you can even get banks to cooperate by processing funds. Most processors will not process poker funds in the US. So logistically right now, it would be pretty hard to actually build and open a site in the US - legally or not.

But I digress. My point was this: you have your ideals on the way the whole country, maybe even world, should work - and you'd like the PPA and the way it organizes to fit into that worldview.

I'd bet that many of us here have very very very different feelings about many things from politics to religion to plant-based diets.

The PPA doesn't want to start a war on 2+2 I don't think. I think they want a group of disparate Americans come together in support of the ONE thing we all DO agree on: that we'd like to play internet poker from/in the US without fear of losing all of our money if we do.

It's a concise yet still rather lofty goal - with plenty of work to be done. 50 States with 50 different constituencies with 50 different (and ever-changing) governments -- all of which share one thing: people living in said state that want their internet poker back.

Many of us probably work toward other political and civic goals. We may even be working against each other in those other situations, but in this ONE place, we share this one goal: to play internet poker again in the US without fear of our bankrolls being seized overnight. So legally is the way most seem to think would be the best way to safeguard our bankrolls.

We can rail on about freedom and the republic and big gov't and gov't cheese or whatever, but the reality here is that we all want the same thing for the most part, and we're trying to work together to get that one thing back, in some working form.

/end babble

You can't complain about the PPA and say what should be done differently if that is all you have to offer. Organize a committee yourself, step up to the fight and engage.

If you think something better can be done, the do it.

For starters, I used to regularly make donations to the PPA when I believed it could get something done in some sort of reasonable time frame. In 4 years you have accomplished ZILCH..

Second, aren't you a paid rep for the PPA ? I am pretty sure John Pappas is paid. So, are you and him and others paid from contributions ?

Wow. Nice two year follow-up since your last post in this thread.

Also, were you in some sort of medical facility or prison for the ten months that you didn't post at all?

The PPA contributed to RAWA not being passed in the waning days of the last Congress. That is a BIG accomplishment.

It sounds like you feel there is an easy way to bypass our opposition. If so, show us.

As I've said before, PPA isn't an entitlement. We've come together in an organized fashion to stand up to those who'd ban the game. If you think it can be done better, please form a group or support others. If you don't, you should be volunteering. If, as it seems, you think you should sit on the sidelines and complain that you're not getting what you feel you're owed, don't expect much sympathy from me.

On here, I am one to usually make joke. But to be serious for a minute, you cannot possibly expect to be "effective" when you attack the "system" with a negative thread like this on a 2+2 forum PERIOD.

Only some sort of CONSTRUCTIVE effort directed towards your REPRESENTATIVES in Congress who hold power will be remotely effective in getting to where you want to be.

You are not satisfied with PPA to date and think they are not the way b/c it has been 4 + years? Like Engineer just said, good. Then be CONSTRUCTIVE and find another better avenue for yourself to get the job done if you so deem. We ALL want the same thing at the end of the day, HELLO! PPA never claimed to be a monopoly on any "best of all" grassroot efforts. In fact, they encourage many of us to flourish with all the more activity, coalitions and groups to engender as powerful political constituents towards our Reps. I get it. You are not satisfied or in agreement with how PPA is going about this. Others may disagree with you and that is the beauty of this country still. Just STOP COMPLAINING.

Seriously however, I got a personalized, individual idea just for you assuming you are that dam passionate (and hopefully good) of a poker player: Please go win a WSOP bracelet at this year's tournament (preferably Main Event which gets most coverage) and then you will have 15 seconds of fame (and maybe more) to really voice yourself on behalf of all us where you can say "YO SHELDON I DID IT!! BUT NOW ALLOW FOR NATIONAL LEGALIZED POKER SHELDON!!"

United we stand, divided we fall. Unless you are a troll for some outside group against the interests of online poker players everywhere, you are wasting energies having created such a decisive thread in the first place. At least a better title for a thread might have been "I disagree with PPA - is there a BETTER (always PEACEFUL) WAY to get the job done?"

Doubt MLK or Gandhi ever asked for a salary when leading the fights for what they believed in. If you do not see that the PPA and its leaders are just part of the system and part of the problem, you are blind.

LOL lobbyists

But you are correct, threads like this are pointless

One more thing to stress. Many of us certainly feel the way you do towards special interest groups, big business and govt etc.. But that will be NO EXCUSE for any violence. So please please think of your remedies along peaceful measures. People from JC to MLK to Gandhi have made great strides (despite being beaten viciously themselves) thru civil disobedience and NOT VIOLENCE.

People can't spend too large an amount of their time working on something without being paid something. People need food and shelter. They may have families. Etc.

I don't think many people would be willing to give up the ability to make a living in order to fight against a prohibition of offering/playing online poker.

Uh MLK and Ghandi might not have asked for a salary, but their needs were taken care of so effectively they were compensated when leading the fight for what they believed in.

Trying to effect political change is a full time job. I would argue that too few people are being paid to work on this issue, and that is the reason it is taking so long to find success.

Our opponents are getting paid for their efforts, and have all the financial resources they need to gain access to and influence the powers that be, and they will probably win because of it.

This. The PPA is always like "if you don't like us go start your own movement then!". Did the poker players in the UK, Italy, Spain and other regulated countries have to quit their day jobs to become activists to fight for online poker? Why is out govt dragging it's feet on something every other civilized country in the world has already done?

That's a joke. I volunteered full time for five years before taking a paid role -- one that pays less than I made as a full-time engineer.

Not sure why you're mad that OTHERS aren't giving your what you deserve. Now you want me to live under a bridge and do this work on a library computer because you feel that entitled?

If you don't think PPA should have a couple of paid employees for work that needs to be done, why don't YOU volunteer full time for free?