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Poker Legislation & PPA Discussion hosted by Rich Muny Discussions of various poker-related laws and steps players can take to push for better laws.

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Old 08-22-2009, 08:52 PM   #1
W0X0F
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Getting screwed by Full Tilt and no recourse

Here's one of the real downsides of having no real legitimacy to online poker. I was recently suspended from FTP for alleged association with another user (I posted my problem on the BBV board). I say "alleged" because I have no idea what other user they are talking about and they won't tell me. I've made exactly two on-line transfers of money in the past year, for $12 and $60, to users who, to the best of my knowledge, are above board.

Not looking for sympathy (as my father used to say: "you'll find sympathy in the dictionary somewhere between **** and syphilis") because, if the BBV board is any indication, most people will assume I'm guilty until proven innocent.

My point is this: I have no recourse and no rights. I have to wait for FTP to complete their investigation and they won't even tell me how long that might take. Meanwhile my $1600 is held hostage. If online poker were legitimized through legislation I would at least have some avenue to take. Another reason to support the PPA.
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Old 08-22-2009, 09:15 PM   #2
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Re: Getting screwed by Full Tilt and no recourse

That's what you get for participating in unlawful internet gambling!

But seriously, sorry to hear of your troubles. Hope FT comes around and releases your funds.
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Old 08-22-2009, 09:22 PM   #3
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Re: Getting screwed by Full Tilt and no recourse

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Originally Posted by W0X0F View Post
Here's one of the real downsides of having no real legitimacy to online poker. I was recently suspended from FTP for alleged association with another user (I posted my problem on the BBV board).
You're right. I'm sure those on BBV gave you no sympathy, mainly because as more details come out on these situations the poster is almost always found to be in the wrong when the site makes that determination. However I'm sure there are rare situations where they are wrong. Having no recourse sucks.
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Old 08-22-2009, 09:37 PM   #4
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Re: Getting screwed by Full Tilt and no recourse

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You're right. I'm sure those on BBV gave you no sympathy, mainly because as more details come out on these situations the poster is almost always found to be in the wrong when the site makes that determination. However I'm sure there are rare situations where they are wrong. Having no recourse sucks.
Yea your right in most cases is seems the player did do something wrong. The fact is it still isn't right that they have no recourse legal or otherwise. While one might do something against a sites TOS (being underage, multiple accounts ect.) The player should be able to know what evidence the site has and what they are being accused of doing.

Sites should not be able to say we have a right to close your account a take your money because they can and say we aren't telling you what you did wrong or may have done wrong and our decision is final, have a good day. Regulation might give players some recourse (legally) and set up reg's and guidelines the sites would have to comply with to protect players if the sites wants a U.S license.
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Old 08-22-2009, 09:55 PM   #5
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Re: Getting screwed by Full Tilt and no recourse

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You're right. I'm sure those on BBV gave you no sympathy, mainly because as more details come out on these situations the poster is almost always found to be in the wrong when the site makes that determination.
That is probably true. I can only protest my innocence, but I really have no idea what charges I'm facing. I'm not and have never been a cheater. I'm a 54 year old airline pilot who plays mostly for fun and competition. In the last month I've worked up $400 up to $1600, playing mostly $20 tournaments. It was only when I tried to cash out some ($600 -- my first cash out this year) that I encountered this problem.

All that aside, it's the lack of recourse which is most frustrating. I feel like I'm being robbed.
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Old 08-22-2009, 10:03 PM   #6
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Re: Getting screwed by Full Tilt and no recourse

My gf and I will often be playing from the same place (one of our houses or the same motel). We try to avoid playing at the same table, but on rare occaisions end of on the same table in a tournament. I also have a friend that frequnetly play STTs and cash games with. I've transferred money between both of them often. I assume Full Tilt's software has both of them identified as related to me in some fashion. Although there is no way anyone who evaluates hands I've played against either is likely to think there is funny business going on, I've been a bit paranoid about it. Like OP said, one more argument for regulation.
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Old 08-22-2009, 11:42 PM   #7
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Re: Getting screwed by Full Tilt and no recourse

Even if Harrah's under licensing and regulation was holding your money pending some investigation, then what are you going to do for $1,600.00. You would still have to wait. If they did not return your money, then maybe you could sue in small claims court, but most likely under their terms and conditions it would have to be in their location. Yes, some government agency might be able to help, but how long would that relief take. IMO, if you have done nothing wrong, then your account will be cleared.

FWIW, I never do any player to player transfers with anyone.
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Old 08-23-2009, 04:55 PM   #8
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Re: Getting screwed by Full Tilt and no recourse

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FWIW, I never do any player to player transfers with anyone.
IMO:

Neither do I, but it shouldn't have to be this way. There are things every reasonable person does to protect themselves and their money. In this case, I find it unreasonable (even ridiculous) for such people to feel they have to take this measure.
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Old 08-23-2009, 05:11 PM   #9
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Re: Getting screwed by Full Tilt and no recourse

When I sent an email to FTP asking who the suspect account was that I am associated with, I got this response. Note the part I have highlighted:

Thank you for writing to Full Tilt Poker Support.

Unfortunately we cannot reveal to you the accounts to which you are associated with, both for security and privacy reasons.

Due to your proximity to the accounts in question we have no choice but to suspend your account as well. We only suspend those accounts whose owners share the same computers or who habitually log into the same network with the person who's under security review. The idea is to limit the exposure of the site to a possible concerted effort from a group of individuals to defraud it. It is by no means an accusation of fraud on your part but we must take every possible precaution to defend the site, which includes preventive suspensions.

Since the pace of the investigation depends on the cooperation of the persons being investigated we cannot give you an timetable either. Rest assured, however, that we will get in touch with you the moment it is completed.

Thank you for you patience and understanding.

Sincerely,

Larry N
Full Tilt Poker Support
--------------------------

If this is true, then it's not the transfers which are the problem. No one has ever played from my laptop but me, which leaves playing on the "same network". Does this mean ISP? I often play at JFK airport, using a wireless network set up here in the pilots' crew room...shared by several hundred pilots. Of course, I also play using ISPs worldwide during my layovers. Boy, if you can't trust a pilot...

Just wondering how long I have to wait to find out what this is about.
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Old 08-23-2009, 08:13 PM   #10
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Re: Getting screwed by Full Tilt and no recourse

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If this is true, then it's not the transfers which are the problem. No one has ever played from my laptop but me, which leaves playing on the "same network". Does this mean ISP? I often play at JFK airport, using a wireless network set up here in the pilots' crew room...shared by several hundred pilots. Of course, I also play using ISPs worldwide during my layovers. Boy, if you can't trust a pilot...

Just wondering how long I have to wait to find out what this is about.
It would be more specific than the same ISP (internet service provider), you probably mean IP which is much more specific. Who has access to the wireless network at JFK, only pilots or possibly other flight crew members? In all likelihood either that network or one like it in the other airports around the world could be the culprit. If you're on a schedule where you are on the same route and layover at the same hotel it could be the wireless network at the hotel if you play from there.

Since I'm inclined to believe you haven't done anything shady it appears that someone else who uses one of these networks has. Once they finish their investigation you should be cleared. It might help to let them know your situation. In the meantime I guess you're left with the age old timekiller of chasing flight attendants. Hope it works out. I'd be interested in hearing what happens.
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Old 08-23-2009, 08:49 PM   #11
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Re: Getting screwed by Full Tilt and no recourse

Well, since they state "habitually log in from the same network", then I would assume you and another pilot at JFK must be playing at FT. Even if you're both logging in at different times, they think there's a multi-accounting issue at hand. Since FT security know next to nothing about the internet, expect it to take a while to clear up. In the meanwhile, let them know your situation.
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Old 08-23-2009, 09:15 PM   #12
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Re: Getting screwed by Full Tilt and no recourse

If you think bringing them onshore will help, you are wrong. Look into the kind of games Paypal plays with people's money...
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Old 08-24-2009, 11:54 AM   #13
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Re: Getting screwed by Full Tilt and no recourse

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It would be more specific than the same ISP (internet service provider), you probably mean IP which is much more specific. Who has access to the wireless network at JFK, only pilots or possibly other flight crew members? In all likelihood either that network or one like it in the other airports around the world could be the culprit. If you're on a schedule where you are on the same route and layover at the same hotel it could be the wireless network at the hotel if you play from there.

(1) Since I'm inclined to believe you haven't done anything shady it appears that someone else who uses one of these networks has. (2) Once they finish their investigation you should be cleared. (3) It might help to let them know your situation. In the meantime I guess you're left with the age old timekiller of chasing flight attendants. Hope it works out. (4) I'd be interested in hearing what happens.
(1) Well you are in a minority on this forum. It seems most people feel that if FT is "investigating" then I must be guilty. Thank you for your words of support.

(2) I agree, but the problem is they have given no indication how long this whole thing might take and they aren't talking to me.

(3) I've tried to tell them my situation in emails and I get very general responses. Like 2+2ers, they don't seem too impressed...lol!

(4) Are you referring to this FullTilt thing, or to the "chasing flight attendants"? [I could tell you a great story about a recent overnight in Kiev, but it's not poker-related and I know that most readers here want nothing else.]
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Old 08-24-2009, 01:01 PM   #14
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Re: Getting screwed by Full Tilt and no recourse

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(1) Well you are in a minority on this forum. It seems most people feel that if FT is "investigating" then I must be guilty. Thank you for your words of support.

(2) I agree, but the problem is they have given no indication how long this whole thing might take and they aren't talking to me.

(3) I've tried to tell them my situation in emails and I get very general responses. Like 2+2ers, they don't seem too impressed...lol!

(4) Are you referring to this FullTilt thing, or to the "chasing flight attendants"? [I could tell you a great story about a recent overnight in Kiev, but it's not poker-related and I know that most readers here want nothing else.]
1) Typically I react the same because because most of the time that is the case, at least people who post about it here or in the zoo. But your OP and backstory is much more credible than most. If it isn't true my belief does you no good and we already know where to find my sympathy.

2 and 3) Unfortunately you've got no choice now but to wait. Even if this kind of situation was better under US licensing/regulation you'd still be stuck waiting for their investigation to be completed.

4) The situation with Full Tilt. I'd probably just get jealous about the other.
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Old 08-24-2009, 01:09 PM   #15
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Re: Getting screwed by Full Tilt and no recourse

If you created your account in that pilots room and someone else has created an account on that same IP, that is where your problem lies. So, I would just ask around to be honest and see who else plays. Good luck though, hope it gets figured out soon.
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Old 08-24-2009, 01:21 PM   #16
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Re: Getting screwed by Full Tilt and no recourse

Don't know what to tell you, but if you haven't done anything wrong I'm sure you'll get your money. Hang in there.
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Old 08-24-2009, 01:50 PM   #17
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Re: Getting screwed by Full Tilt and no recourse

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1) Typically I react the same because because most of the time that is the case, at least people who post about it here or in the zoo.
I'm sure this is a dumb question from a noob, but what is the zoo? NVG?
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Old 08-24-2009, 01:52 PM   #18
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Re: Getting screwed by Full Tilt and no recourse

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Don't know what to tell you, but if you haven't done anything wrong I'm sure you'll get your money. Hang in there.
Thanks for the encouraging words. Guess I'll have to take the zen approach. But it's killing me...I'm on an overnight right now in Livorno Italy with nothing to do. Free internet at the hotel and tables are calling....

I'm reduced to surfing 2+2...lol!!
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Old 08-24-2009, 02:15 PM   #19
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Re: Getting screwed by Full Tilt and no recourse

Sounds like a great job, being able to fly to a bunch of different countries and getting paid to do it.

Anyway, if you haven't done anything wrong I'm sure they'll come to that conclusion and give you your money back soon enough. Sucks that you have to wait, though.

Last edited by WarnerK; 08-24-2009 at 02:20 PM.
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Old 08-24-2009, 03:08 PM   #20
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Re: Getting screwed by Full Tilt and no recourse

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Thanks for the encouraging words. Guess I'll have to take the zen approach. But it's killing me...I'm on an overnight right now in Livorno Italy with nothing to do. Free internet at the hotel and tables are calling....

I'm reduced to surfing 2+2...lol!!
You might want to use all that extra time on you hands to open an account at PokerStars. They haven't banned you, too, have they?
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Old 08-24-2009, 03:13 PM   #21
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Re: Getting screwed by Full Tilt and no recourse

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Sounds like a great job, being able to fly to a bunch of different countries and getting paid to do it.
If you have a job you love, it's like you never work a day in your life. That's exactly how I feel...on a perpetual vacation.

Breaking news on this case...

I got an email from FTP saying that the offending user played from my primary PC and that I've made several transfers to him.

My first thought was "no way!", but then I thought harder and realized that last November I went on a golf trip to Florida with about 2 dozen guys. I stayed in a condo with my brother and 2 friends. I let my brother play a SNG using my laptop and, yes, I have transferred funds to him many times (amounts of about $10 each time; total couldn't have been over $200) but not once in 2009.

Anyway, he won that SNG with me coaching him and that's the last contact I had with my brother on poker. He was a horrible player (check boxmna911 on Sharkscope) and ultimately stopped playing; I never asked him why...just thought it was a good idea for him to quit.

I sent him the FTP email and I'm waiting for a response, wondering wtf he did. I never knew him to try collusion or any other cheat, so I'm really wondering what this could be.

I sent a response to FullTilt asking if he is, in fact, the offending account and saying I might have some influence in getting him to rectify whatever it is he did. If they can't confirm that he is the problem, then I'm left with no alternative but to take my money and find another place to play, assuming that I'm not blackballed on every other site.

So to all you who were sure I was guilty, I guess you were right in a way. I must now suffer for the sins of my brother (whatever the hell they are).
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Old 08-24-2009, 03:17 PM   #22
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Re: Getting screwed by Full Tilt and no recourse

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I'm sure this is a dumb question from a noob, but what is the zoo? NVG?
The Zoo is the internet poker forum found here:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28/internet-poker/

Usually most online poker posts and ?'s go there. I wouldn't post this there yet, wait until you find out what FT does after their investigation. If you post this in the zoo you will get flamed by many. Some will just assume you did something wrong on FT and others like on this forum will wait to see what FT does in the end. Someone starts a post in the zoo 1 or 2 times a week about an online poker site closing their account and/or seizing their money. Go read some of the other posts in the zoo but I would hold off on starting a thread until FT is done with the investigation.

I hope it all works out for you in the end, It sometimes takes FT a while to finish the investigation GL.
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Old 08-24-2009, 03:18 PM   #23
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Re: Getting screwed by Full Tilt and no recourse

Is it possible he bounced a check and didn't pay them? That is the most likely case.
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Old 08-24-2009, 03:45 PM   #24
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Re: Getting screwed by Full Tilt and no recourse

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Is it possible he bounced a check and didn't pay them? That is the most likely case.
I guess it's possible (though it would surprise me), but I'm really curious to get to the bottom of this. I don't know if FTP will even verify that he's the problem.
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Old 08-24-2009, 04:29 PM   #25
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Re: Getting screwed by Full Tilt and no recourse

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I guess it's possible (though it would surprise me), but I'm really curious to get to the bottom of this. I don't know if FTP will even verify that he's the problem.
Most of the time they never tell you what the prob is. When they finish the investigation they either open your account back and allow you to play or they find something say to bad your account is closed and depending on what they think you did, may/may not return your funds.
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