Probably sent them in near the end of march as was told 12 to 18 weeks. Hoping to get the money before this years WSOP

They charge $50 to get your tax number, and $150 to file +$50 per each additional 1042-s slip (you'll get a new slip each time you cash at the WSOP).

I had 2 slips and no number, so $250 which they take right out of my return.

cool thx, sounds reasonable...

Remember that you only get all of your money back if and only if you *lose* money gambling in the USA over the course of the year (and for most amateur players, you can not lump your hotel and food costs into that). As a Canadian, you are entitled to net your wins against your losses ... and then your net gain is taxable to 30%. If they have withheld more than what you are entitled to pay, you get a refund.

The 1040NR is *not* difficult to fill out (once you have your ITIN), but if you can't or don't fill in your own Canadian tax return, $150 for a 1040NR is a reasonable fee.

You should see the Poker Legislation forum's master sticky on US Taxes for what you need to record for the purposes of the IRS about cash game wins and losses.

This is correct. There is a lot of false information out there regarding taxes on Canadians in the US. A lot of people I talk to seem to think you just fill out the paperwork and you get the 30% back. This is NOT the case. You get taxed on 30% of your NET winnings. So if you played just one WSOP event and cashed for 100k, you're going to lose 30k unless you blew some money in the pit or on other tourney buyins.

Seems like a great excuse to shoot some dice.

I`m planning on selling up to 4k of my main event buyin. I`m a Canadian that pays taxes on my poker winnings. Can any Canadians or non-Canadian stakers weigh in the best way on handling staking and taxes?

I understand 30% typically is witheld at the source and I don't anticipate myself being able to claim any of it back. So out of whatever I get paid out by the casino I pay out to my stakers whatever % they boughtand then on my taxes I report my winnings as whatever I'm left with after paying out stakers?

Any help from Canadians that have experience with staking for one off tournaments in the US would be greatly appreciated.

I've read about 75% of the thread. I'm confused about one thing...

In part-time play say I won about 60k last year, however say I ran pretty good and the sample size wasn't huge. I also had a part-time job in 2009 and I definitely wasn't a professional. This year I played some mid/high stakes and lost a lot of money actually, almost $20,000.

Since May I've dropped back down to small stakes and I've been playing full-time. Although I've made back a lot of my earlier losses this year, im definitely still in the red so far.

By the end of the year I'll probably be in the black and if I'm still playing full-time then should I declare my winnings? Also, I didn't declare anything last year since I was not a professional so then I would just report this years winnings and leave it at that?

That's the way my friends and I did it for last year's WSOP Main Event, not bothering with markup or dealers' tips because of the 30% withholding tax. Unfortunately, that 30% extra rake/tax makes any US donkament -EV for both you and your stakers.

Playing any Canadian casino tournament (e.g., Fallsview Poker Classic $1K - $5K) will have much higher EV with zero tax withholding. Hopefully the WPT/NAPT/WSOP-C will have future events in Canada. Anyway, good luck.

I won a trip to the WSOP ME on fulltilt. Was totally under the impression that Canadians could fill out a ITIN at the Rio if we cashed and then get the full amount..or at least get it back.
These "rumours" might come from articles like this:
http://www.pokerlistings.com/paying-...r-winnings-860

Pokerlistings is a reputable site. Did the rules change?
My trip to the WSOP hangs on this.

I do get a free entry into 2011 if I cash (and an extra 10Million if i win ).
Does this make it +eV?

opinions?

You can get back the 30% to the extent that you have offsetting losses.

If you win 10k and have 10k in entry fees then you'll get it all back.
Win 10k with1k entries then you are only getting back the 30% on the 1k.

You will not get back any of the 30% on your net winnings.

Good to know, thanks all

I am declaring my poker income since 2008. I got a call from CRA yesterday inquiring about the poker income I declared on my income tax return for 2009. I told them truthfully that the money is coming from playing poker part time. The agent told me then that gambling winnings are not taxable in Canada and that they will refund the taxes I paid on my poker income.

What should be my next steps?
Should I just keep quite? Ask for a refund of the poker taxes I paid in 2008? Contact Revenu Quebec and ask for a refund too?

You got lucky.
When you get your reassessment back, send it to provincial tax guys and
ask for a reassessment due to inclusion ofnon-taxable income.

That reassessment is also you future get out of jail free card.

Thanks TorontoCFE.

I guess it is safe for me now to stop declaring my poker income. In the case CRA changes its opinion I would just have to pay the taxes I owe back but they should not be able to charge me with any penalties or interests? Correct?

so, are you guys really declaring your poker revenues? I mean, isn't the system unclear enough that you can't really have too much problems if they "catch you"?

Correct, you would be safe because essentially you are doing what they told you.

Does anyone here have any information with respect to the tax form 5754* and how that may effect your filing of the 1042-s form?

The purpose of the 5754 form seems to be precisely for situations like this, and the rio refuses to touch it and is basically saying to do it yourself. But it seems like there is no way to do it yourself after the fact. Not to my knowledge anyways.

I spent the last two days grinding out the IRS help lines for info, and finally got to some guy who said something to the effect of that theyre legally obligated to recognize the forms and pay out accordingly if everyone provides their ITTN and signs off that they received it. The phone number for that particular branch of the IRS is 215 516 2000 extensions: (2) (3)

I was told to get whoever is in charge to contact them to sort it out. So I got in touch with Andy Rich who is the director of poker operations for the wsop. He was sympathetic, but made it sound like the issue has been raised before to no avail. I'm not sure if he called the number, but he did give me the number of someone high up in their accounting division and I'll be calling them tomorrow.


Does anyone know anything else?

* http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f5754.pdf


edit: ive spoken to a few different accountants, and a few of the companies that specialize in recovering the 30%. none have any clue whatsoever how to handle these forms. it seems their only interest is to spit out the 1042-s forms as fast as possible, preferably with phony losses, get you to sign a liability waver, and scoop you for a ridiculous amount.

[QUOTE=Abbaddabba;19309699]Does anyone here have any information with respect to the tax form 5754* and how that may effect your filing of the 1042-s form?

The purpose of the 5754 form seems to be precisely for situations like this, and the rio refuses to touch it and is basically saying to do it yourself. But it seems like there is no way to do it yourself after the fact. Not to my knowledge anyways.
QUOTE]

I'm not surprised they don't want to handle them - most don't since it is more work for them.
I believe they are legally required to pay out as directed in the 5754 if presented properly and to adjust their paperwork as required.

I'd bet 90% of the time they will refuse to do so. Maybe it is because their accounting processes aren't flexible enough to deal with this issue.

First, a special thanks to TorontoCFE. He's been a great reference for us nervous Canadians on this forum.
Question: should I try to get an ITIN card before I go to the WSOP ME in about 4 weeks, and if I don't have the time (6-8weeks?), can I get one at the RIO if I do score a cash, and does it matter or are we all just fighting to get it back after the fact anyway?

you can get an ITIN once you have a need for one, at the Rio.
The IRS doesn 't like issuing numbers without need so it is hard to get ahead of time.

Ok, so here's an update.

This is probably asking for too much, and I understand if you dont want to read through all of it.

I found this document: http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p515.pdf

it details all the conditions for when the 30% should be withheld, with respect to non-citizens and citizens jointly receiving tournament winnings. the idea is that i want to avoid my backers from having their 30% withheld, since they will all be there to fill out the 5754 form. i believe that the rios rationale for not allowing it to be divided up on the spot has to do with the conditions on this form.

I'm having difficulty intrepreting it though. I'm passing it along to some accountants, but they have no background in these issues so I thought someone here may be more appropriate. I'm willing to pay, if looking into it requires any significant amount of time.

What intrepretation do you need?

If you provide a 5754 and the other parties are present, there should be no dispute that the 5754 is legit.
Further, if your backers come from a country with a tax treaty that allows 0withholding, then there should be no withholding if those backers provide a W-8BEN.

The Rio should only not cooperate if they can't establish the validity of the documents.

I am more inclined to believe that they don't cooperate because it is more work for them. They would prefer 1 player/1 payout because it is easy and transparent. With multiple payouts per finish, someone has to worry about making sure all the documents are complete and legit, that all laws are complied with (including possibly multiple tax treaties). Their accounting is complicated because you nowe have multiple payouts that they need to track back to the tourney results. Now instead of 1 W2 or other document, there could be maybe up to 10 or so in some cases.

They would rather not have the headaches and pass the backoffice work they aren't compnesated for on to you.

If it was just a matter of doing the paperwork and accounting after the fact, I would be fine with it. My issue is that I'm unclear whether it would even be possible to recoup the 30% of the US citizens share of the winnings.

None of the accountants I've spoken to have been able to give me a straight answer, and I've spoken to a few who specialize in these returns. All of them specialize only in filing 1042-s forms.


You seem to know a fair bit about these sort of things. And while you probably don't know the letter of the law, how likely do you think it is that I'll be able to recover the US citizens proportion of the 30% withholding tax? Is it likely enough that you would feel comfortable accepting backers money to play in the tournaments?

Thats tough to say - I don't know Harrahs current attitude on doing the right thing - I haven't been to the WSOP since 2006.

I would think you could raise enough hell at the cage (ask for a supervisor, then keep going up the chain) and get them on the phone with the IRS
that you would get them to do it properly eventually hopefully its not 3am when you are trying to cash)

When you hear about big winners not claiming their money for some time, this is part of the reason - they have to get the paperwork in place and acceptable to Harrahs.

I would not have too much issue with playing with backers - one way or the other it would work out - as long as the backers understand the potential delays.

This might not even be an issue - they may do things corectly.
If you win the ME, I'm willing to go down and straighten them out for you

Asking for legal/tax advice in this thread is like asking medical/diagnostic questions of a nurse.