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Legislation for Poker & Income Taxes for Poker Players Discussions of various poker-related laws and steps players can take to push for better laws.

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Old 08-18-2010, 10:48 AM   #1251
Schwallie
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Re: HR 2267 Markup (Passed 41-22-1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Former DJ View Post
Thank you flight2q. Not only are you correct, but you're a very beautiful lady too. (Smiley)

I'm perfectly capable of defending myself against such cheap shots. I did so, in a subsequent post, and it (apparently) drove PX and TE crazy as they are now egging on others to have me banned. Years ago, when I was on the football field, we had a name for fellows who can dish it out but can't take it.

Former DJ
No we all asked for you to be banned.

TE simply said if we had a problem to hit the report button. Do you not notice there were what, 5-6 non-PPA and non-2p2 affiliated people here asking for you to be banned, not TE or Skall only(or at all?)
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Old 08-18-2010, 11:09 AM   #1252
Former DJ
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Re: HR 2267 Markup (Passed 41-22-1)

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Originally Posted by Schwallie View Post
Could you provide more evidence for the 5million? Please repost the article, and show us more evidence than 1 person saying it. I mean 5mill is a big deal, obviously it would be written about often.

Also, please tell what your problems are with the opt out in Menendez? I assume it can't be the opt-out in general, as we all know it would be impossible and unconstitutional to try to get a bill through with no opt outs.
Schwallie:

Happy to oblige. Here's the 2007 article:

http://www.pokerhelper.com/news/2007...-does-his-job/

I also recall reading a posting about this on Pokerati (or possibly even here on 2+2) right around the same time, but I haven't found, thus far, the article from either one of those two sources - although I do recall reading about Chairman D'Amato and his (alleged) $5,000,000.00 bonus somewhere during that time frame. Mr. Somach's article alone refutes the charge that this allegation (about Chairman D'Amato) is "unsubstantiated".

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Old 08-18-2010, 11:22 AM   #1253
Former DJ
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Re: HR 2267 Markup (Passed 41-22-1)

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Originally Posted by flight2q View Post
Even so, the posting about a newspaper article with "Former DJ" in the headline, and the subsequent yucking it up by a mod were inappropriate.
Dear flight2q:

Please go back a few pages and read reply # 1227 itt for my response to TE's "yucking it up" at my expense. I doubt if he was laughing by the time he reached the final sentence of that post.

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Old 08-18-2010, 11:31 AM   #1254
Schwallie
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Re: HR 2267 Markup (Passed 41-22-1)

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Originally Posted by Former DJ View Post
Schwallie:

Happy to oblige. Here's the 2007 article:

http://www.pokerhelper.com/news/2007...-does-his-job/

I also recall reading a posting about this on Pokerati (or possibly even here on 2+2) right around the same time, but I haven't found, thus far, the article from either one of those two sources - although I do recall reading about Chairman D'Amato and his (alleged) $5,000,000.00 bonus somewhere during that time frame. Mr. Somach's article alone refutes the charge that this allegation (about Chairman D'Amato) is "unsubstantiated".

Former DJ
So 1 2007 article, and no one else picked it up or said anything about it? It is decent news, why did not one other say anything about it? That should tell you something.

Please address my other part of my post, as it involves your other grievance.
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Old 08-18-2010, 11:43 AM   #1255
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Re: HR 2267 Markup (Passed 41-22-1)

DJ does not address questions which are not convenient for him to spin, as he is still, yet, to explain why (an admitted non-poker player) is so interested in this legislation.

To be clear, I think there certainly can be legitimate reasons for a non poker player to be interested in this legislation. I just can't understand why the underlying reasoning is such a closely guarded secret.

Is he opposed on moral or religious grounds? Is he affiliated with an organization that stands to be harmed by the passing of this legislation?
Is he merely upset because, as a man who is clearly impressed by his own intellect, he can't win at poker?

All questions which this shady, bald-faced liar will not address.
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Old 08-18-2010, 11:56 AM   #1256
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Re: HR 2267 Markup (Passed 41-22-1)

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Originally Posted by flight2q View Post
Even so, the posting about a newspaper article with "Former DJ" in the headline, and the subsequent yucking it up by a mod were inappropriate.
If you read his posting history it will quickly become apparent they were engaging in his tactics to provide an example of his frequently nonsensical posts. He then validates what is alleged about him by posting the D'Amato nonsense, which has been refuted. I'll do it again, read on:

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Former DJ View Post
...(If you challenge me or accuse me of "lying" on this one or posting an "unsubstantiated" charge, I'll be happy to repost Tom Stomach's 2007 article - and any others that I can find on the topic. Wait, somebody has already knocked that one down insisting that Stomach is not "a real journalist" and I should "Google" him. I believe that kind of non-denial denial is called "Kill the messenger!" That technique was very popular with the Nixon crowd during Watergate.)...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Former DJ View Post
Schwallie:

Happy to oblige. Here's the 2007 article:

http://www.pokerhelper.com/news/2007...-does-his-job/

I also recall reading a posting about this on Pokerati (or possibly even here on 2+2) right around the same time, but I haven't found, thus far, the article from either one of those two sources - although I do recall reading about Chairman D'Amato and his (alleged) $5,000,000.00 bonus somewhere during that time frame. Mr. Somach's article alone refutes the charge that this allegation (about Chairman D'Amato) is "unsubstantiated".

Former DJ
If you do some research, i.e.: google various sentences in the Somach article, google "D'Amato $5,000,000 bonus", etc., the ONLY "article" you come up with is Somach's. The posting you allegedly read on Pokerati, was likely a DISCUSSION OF THE SOMACH "ARTICLE". I say allegedly because a site search of Pokerati, and a google search using "site: pokerati.com" turns up NO ARTICLE WITH YOUR ALLEGATION.

I don't know why you don't seem to be able to understand this: Frequently, poker "news" sites regurgitate what they've heard from poker news sites. This happens all the time. Some nonsense is alleged, and when it's questioned, someone will pipe up with "But, I read it on 10 different news sites!", but when you go read all ten sites, IT'S THE SAME ARTICLE BY THE SAME PERSON, THE 10 SITES JUST COPIED IT.

I spent an hour trying to find someone else alleging this, or even a site that had copied the Somach article, and was unable to do so. Why don't you email Somach and ask him for his sources and also inquire as to whether or not he still stands by the story (here's his email: tomsomach@yahoo.com).

Here's a link to all pokerati stories tagged with D'Amato, go through and read them all, I did, and couldn't find any mention of D'Amato and a $5 million bonus.

Here's my final question on this issue, which you've refused to answer before, and I'm sure you'll just ignore again:

WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE? WHAT IS THE POINT YOU'RE TRYING TO MAKE?
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Old 08-18-2010, 12:32 PM   #1257
Former DJ
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Re: HR 2267 Markup (Passed 41-22-1)

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Originally Posted by Schwallie View Post
So 1 2007 article, and no one else picked it up or said anything about it? It is decent news, why did not one other say anything about it? That should tell you something.

Please address my other part of my post, as it involves your other grievance.
Schwallie:

If you have an hour or two of time, query on my moniker and bring up the 80 or so postings I've put up on 2+2. (The bulk of them are in this and Skall's Individual State Opt-Out Prediction Thread.) I address the numerous problems with the opt-out provision in several of my postings. However, I suspect you may be looking for a "Cliff Notes" summary of my objections, so here it is. The opt-out provision is fine - just as long as you don't live in a state that actually opts-out! If you suffer the misfortune of just happening to live in an opt-out state, then you're basically screwed as your ability to play online poker (at all) has been greatly impaired. The PPA's position with respect to their members who just happen to live in opt-out states boils down to: Be a good sport and take one for the team! After all, getting this bill passed is for the greater good of the most poker players. You understand ...

Also, Skall started his thread off confidently predicting that "less than five states" would opt-out. When LG challendged him to put money on his "prediction" - at 3:1 up to $5,000.00 - Skall suddenly turned into a deaf mute. Nobody really knows how many states are going to opt-out, but the PPA is being disingenuous with their members when they try to downplay this concern insisting that it will be a small number. Different people have different "guesstimates" of the number. My (conservative) guess is somewhere in the 15-20 range, but several folks disagree insisting that "more than ten" is highly unlikely. The objective truth (if there is such a thing) is that nobody has a clue since a lot of uncertainty and ambiguity swirls around the actual language of the opt-out clause in the actual bills. In one of my posts I list the verbatim text from the state opt-out clause on page 44 of Senator Menendez's bill. I'm not going to reproduce that text here, but the literal reading of S.1597 is that the Governor or "Chief Executive Officer" of each state has the sole discretion and authority to decide whether or not his state will opt out. That's my reading of the actual language of Senator Menendez's bill, but even that is in dispute since JPFisher55, (who is a practicing attorney in St. Louis), has opined that he doesn't believe a Governor alone can decide to opt-out - irrespective of what language is in Senator Menendez's bill.

If you read some of the early posts in Skall's "prediction" thread, you'll see some interesting commentaries and points of view. (The posts from folks in California and Massachusetts are interesting. One poster noted that if California opts-out, that will be like losing ten states since California's population is greater than the entire nation of Canada!) There are other "problems" with the opt-out provision, (which you can read in my other posts), but this is the "Cliff Notes" summary.

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Old 08-18-2010, 12:41 PM   #1258
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Re: HR 2267 Markup (Passed 41-22-1)

Please change thread title to "HR 2267 Markup and People Feed the Troll"

(Hint: Try ignoring him!)
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Old 08-18-2010, 02:36 PM   #1259
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Re: HR 2267 Markup (Passed 41-22-1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Former DJ View Post
Thank you flight2q. Not only are you correct, but you're a very beautiful lady too. (Smiley)

I'm perfectly capable of defending myself against such cheap shots. I did so, in a subsequent post, and it (apparently) drove PX and TE crazy as they are now egging on others to have me banned...
O RLY? Have I said anything about banning you? I just find you laughable and have some fun at your expense. BTW, I'm just a PPA volunteer and my posts are just my opinion, not official PPA position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Former DJ View Post
The opt-out provision is fine - just as long as you don't live in a state that actually opts-out! If you suffer the misfortune of just happening to live in an opt-out state, then you're basically screwed as your ability to play online poker (at all) has been greatly impaired. The PPA's position with respect to their members who just happen to live in opt-out states boils down to: Be a good sport and take one for the team! After all, getting this bill passed is for the greater good of the most poker players. You understand ...

Also, Skall started his thread off confidently predicting that "less than five states" would opt-out. When LG challendged him to put money on his "prediction" - at 3:1 up to $5,000.00 - Skall suddenly turned into a deaf mute. Nobody really knows how many states are going to opt-out, but the PPA is being disingenuous with their members when they try to downplay this concern insisting that it will be a small number. Different people have different "guesstimates" of the number. My (conservative) guess is somewhere in the 15-20 range, but several folks disagree insisting that "more than ten" is highly unlikely. The objective truth (if there is such a thing) is that nobody has a clue since a lot of uncertainty and ambiguity swirls around the actual language of the opt-out clause in the actual bills. In one of my posts I list the verbatim text from the state opt-out clause on page 44 of Senator Menendez's bill. I'm not going to reproduce that text here, but the literal reading of S.1597 is that the Governor or "Chief Executive Officer" of each state has the sole discretion and authority to decide whether or not his state will opt out. That's my reading of the actual language of Senator Menendez's bill, but even that is in dispute since JPFisher55, (who is a practicing attorney in St. Louis), has opined that he doesn't believe a Governor alone can decide to opt-out - irrespective of what language is in Senator Menendez's bill.
Thanks for this summation. It is one of your few coherent and meaningful posts on the subject of iPoker (not too surprising since you don't play).

I look at it like this:

To pass federal legislation, it has to have a state opt out provision - the Congresscritters won't pass it without such a provision. I want to see an opt-out provision which specifically requires new legislative action from a state to opt out. There is still plenty of time to achieve a better opt out provision. But worst case, we will simply have to fight the opt outs on the state level.

The alternative is to block or oppose federal legislation. In this case, states will seek their own solutions to iPoker - they aren't just going to let it go on. The intrastate solution will be one of two: outlawing play (as in Washington) or licensing intrastate iPoker (as is already being attempted in FL, CA, NJ). Anywhere a state licenses iPoker, the legislation is likely to be protectionist (i.e., only in-state b&m casinos or the state lottery can offer it; no combined play with anyone outside the state) and to outlaw play other than on the intrastate system.

If we pass federal legislation, there will be some number of state opt outs. The states that opt out will look like the paragraph above: most states that opt out will adopt their own intrastate system, and a few states will just ban iPoker.

So, in those states that opt out it will be no worse than without a federal bill. However, the majority of states will stay opted in, where there will be far better iPoker than we have now.

I also expect most, if not all, intrastate iPoker systems to fail miserably if the federal bill passes, because they won't achieve the critical mass of players needed to amount to anything. These states will eventually opt back in.

Cliffs:

Without federal legislation: Most or all states will either criminalize iPoker or create a protectionist intrastate system that is bad for players and criminalize play on any other site.

With federal legislation: Most states get licensed iPoker. States that opt out get the same thing as without federal legislation, but also the option to later change their mind and opt back in to the federal solution.
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Old 08-18-2010, 02:58 PM   #1260
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Re: HR 2267 Markup (Passed 41-22-1)

Quote:
Also, Skall started his thread off confidently predicting that "less than five states" would opt-out. When LG challendged him to put money on his "prediction" - at 3:1 up to $5,000.00 - Skall suddenly turned into a deaf mute. Nobody really knows how many states are going to opt-out, but the PPA is being disingenuous with their members when they try to downplay this concern insisting that it will be a small number.
Pretty sure that Skall never said these things.

FWIW, I think discussions of the state-opt out issues are legitimate and I think we still arent where we need to be there.

Every time you mention the nonexistent D'Amato bonus and personally disparage TE, Skall, PX, etc, you do a disservice to your argument against the current bill. The bonus doesnt exist. Period.
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Old 08-18-2010, 03:27 PM   #1261
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Re: HR 2267 Markup (Passed 41-22-1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Former DJ View Post
...

Also, Skall started his thread off confidently predicting that "less than five states" would opt-out. When LG challendged him to put money on his "prediction" - at 3:1 up to $5,000.00 - Skall suddenly turned into a deaf mute. Nobody really knows how many states are going to opt-out, but the PPA is being disingenuous with their members when they try to downplay this concern insisting that it will be a small number. Different people have different "guesstimates" of the number.
This is complete and total BS. Anyone who wants to read that thread can and will become instantly aware that this is a lie. The fact that Former DJ continues to post such out and out lies (in quotations marks even) is why he deserves every last little bit of ridicule he gets (and more).

Quote:
In one of my posts I list the verbatim text from the state opt-out clause on page 44 of Senator Menendez's bill.
Former DJ
The fact that we are talking about the House bill not the Senate bill means nothing to someone who just wants to troll this forum. Nor does the fact that the interpretation of that portion of the Menendez bill was fully discussed, and that his interpretation is merely one of many and probably wrong, stop this troll from posting his opinion of something as fact.

I post in these forums primarily because I believe an educated poker community is a more effective community than an ignorant one. Former DJ's trolling is just the opposite. He posts here to increase ignorance and mistaken beliefs of fact among the poker community. The evidence for that conclusion is now overwhelming. Accordingly, there is nothing wrong with the many posters who have asked him to explain his agenda, especially after it was revealed that he doesn't even play online poker.

I have never called for banning anybody and I doubt that I ever will.

But Noah is right, this troll needs to stop being fed.

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Old 08-18-2010, 03:56 PM   #1262
Rich Muny
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Re: HR 2267 Markup (Passed 41-22-1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by flight2q View Post
Even so, the posting about a newspaper article with "Former DJ" in the headline, and the subsequent yucking it up by a mod were inappropriate.
If we see a headline with Flight2q, PokerXanadu, or TheEngineer in the headline, we'll definitely yuck it up here as well. That's part of being a community.
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Old 08-18-2010, 03:58 PM   #1263
cardboardvox
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Re: HR 2267 Markup (Passed 41-22-1)

Former DJ has a history of recalling statements and omitting details or paraphrasing it to his liking. Here is Skalls post I believe he refers to :

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=386

Quote:
In a period of 5 - 10 years, only a few states (2-5) will likely be hardcore "opt-outs."
Second edit: The LG bet wasn't even with Skall, it was with user LOLonghorn:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/57...l#post20439789

Last edited by cardboardvox; 08-18-2010 at 04:12 PM.
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Old 08-18-2010, 04:16 PM   #1264
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Re: HR 2267 Markup (Passed 41-22-1)

PX, I doubt that we can get an opt-out provision requiring a new law. However, we don't need it. All we need is an opt-out provision that clearly requires that state opt out by a method lawful under the laws and constitution of that state. The present provision is ambiguous because it implies that a governors letter would suffice for a state to opt out even though a governor does not have such power under a state law or constitution.

In fact, an opt out provision requiring that the state opt out by any lawful means might be better than one just requiring a new state statute because some states (probably MO for one) would require an amendment to the state constitution to lawfully opt out. An amendment usually requires a public vote.
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Old 08-18-2010, 04:17 PM   #1265
Rich Muny
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Re: HR 2267 Markup (Passed 41-22-1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Former DJ View Post
TE:

So "Former DJ" should be banned? Is that what you mean when you ask others to help you take "appropriate action?"
No. Posters were complaining about your repeated trollish, argumentative posts. I was directing them to the appropriate post reporting system.

Quote:
That's one way to stifle and suppress dissent with the PPA line -
You seem confused. I'm not "the PPA." I'm an independent member of the PPA Board of Directors, not an employee. While I do often share what PPA is doing on this forums, I am not its spokesperson. I've been posting here since even before joining the PPA. I did not lose my voice by joining the PPA Board.

So, when I respond to your posts, that's me responding to you. If you want an official PPA response, you can get that by sending your concerns to email@theppa.org.

Quote:
send the dissenter a nice little PM informing him that he has an "infraction" and has been assessed 10 points. (I don't know what "infractions" mean here on 2+2 other than, "I'm the moderator and I am extremely PO'd with you.")
Your infraction was for complaining publicly about forum moderation rather than taking your concerns to the next-higher mod. I guess you didn't read it, as you repeated this violation. Perhaps a short vacation will help you to see the importance of following Two Plus Two forum terms and conditions.

That being said, I don't moderate this forum on behalf of the PPA. I moderate on behalf of Mason, Mat, and Two Plus Two ownership.

Quote:
While you're at it, accuse the dissenter of being a pathological liar, an FoF spy, guilty of failing to explain "inconsistencies" in his postings, and of having an agenda - implying that the PPA is pure as the driven snow and has no agenda of their own.
You seem to think you should be permitted to post erroneous statements and receive no rebuttal. Well, you won't get that here. This is a discussion forum.

If you do want that, I recommend you start your own website.

Quote:
And while we're at it, just for fun, let's post a link to a news report off the internet taking a cheap shot at Former DJ by linking him to some radio station employee allegedly involved in a criminal act. (Oh wait, I apologize TE - it wasn't you that took that cheap shot. It was one of your buddies - Skall or PX.) You all had a good laugh over that one - until I came back and plastered you.
LOL at claiming you plastered anyone.

Quote:
That's what is really driving you guys nuts - you can dish it out, but you sure can't take it.
Pot, meet kettle.

Quote:
The real problem is that this "pathological liar" keeps raising troubling issues that the PPA would prefer poker players just ignore - issues such as the PPA's position on the opt-out provision of Senator Menendez's bill and all the problems attendant with that,
We've had a lot of discussion on that topic and will continue to do so. No discussion on this -- or any other matter -- has ever been stifled or ignored.

Quote:
as well as financial conflicts of interest within the PPA itself. I'm speaking here specifically of the reported $5,000,000.00 "bonus" that Chairman D'Amato has pointedly failed to deny, while, according to TE, Mr. D'Amato will not dignify such an allegation with a comment despite the fact that this has been written about and posted on the internet by at least one journalist. (If you challenge me or accuse me of "lying" on this one or posting an "unsubstantiated" charge, I'll be happy to repost Tom Stomach's 2007 article - and any others that I can find on the topic. Wait, somebody has already knocked that one down insisting that Stomach is not "a real journalist" and I should "Google" him. I believe that kind of non-denial denial is called "Kill the messenger!" That technique was very popular with the Nixon crowd during Watergate.)
When you asked, I replied with a denial of that rumor. I stated that the denial was on behalf of the PPA.

I don't know if Sen. D'Amato has dignified this garbage himself or not. Why should he? After all, the article making this accusation did not even cite any evidence.

Quote:
Yes, we don't want a "pathological liar" raising these kind of pesky questions, so the best way to deal with such a person is to encourage a chorus of bullfrogs to bay for the "problem" to be banned. It would be so much nicer if the PPA operated under a dictatorship like Saddam Hussein's Iraq. Then Chairman D'Amato could just have "Former DJ" shot. That would be even better than having him banned from some internet message board.

It's very telling when the predominant response to challenge and dissent becomes "Who are you and what is your agenda?" and from there gradually devolves into "I'm getting calls from a lot of posters wanting you banned." That says a lot about the weakness of the PPA's position and the agenda the PPA is trying to promote when the primary response to questions and legitimate concerns becomes a cry that the questioner should be banned. When PPA hacks start suggesting that I should be "banned" rather than defending their positions with solid and convincing arguments, I would suggest that I'm not the problem.
You haven't asked questions or raised concerns. You've simply attacked everyone here. I encourage you to ask questions in the form of questions rather than in the form of argumentative accusations.

Last edited by Rich Muny; 08-18-2010 at 05:08 PM. Reason: fixed typo
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Old 08-18-2010, 04:24 PM   #1266
Rich Muny
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Re: HR 2267 Markup (Passed 41-22-1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Former DJ View Post
I'm speaking here specifically of the reported $5,000,000.00 "bonus" that Chairman D'Amato has pointedly failed to deny, while, according to TE, Mr. D'Amato will not dignify such an allegation with a comment despite the fact that this has been written about and posted on the internet by at least one journalist. (If you challenge me or accuse me of "lying" on this one or posting an "unsubstantiated" charge, I'll be happy to repost Tom Stomach's 2007 article - and any others that I can find on the topic. Wait, somebody has already knocked that one down insisting that Stomach is not "a real journalist" and I should "Google" him. I believe that kind of non-denial denial is called "Kill the messenger!" That technique was very popular with the Nixon crowd during Watergate.)
So, which is it? Is PPA fighting against the current sites (your primary accusations) or for them (the source of this mythical $5M)?

You should at least get your conspiracy theories straight.
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Old 08-18-2010, 04:27 PM   #1267
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Re: HR 2267 Markup (Passed 41-22-1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Former DJ View Post
Mr. Somach's article alone refutes the charge that this allegation (about Chairman D'Amato) is "unsubstantiated".

Former DJ
Substantiation does not mean what you think it does. Substantiation does not mean that someone wrote something down. Rather, substantiation means someone reported some proof of the allegation.
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Old 08-18-2010, 04:31 PM   #1268
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Re: HR 2267 Markup (Passed 41-22-1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Former DJ View Post
Schwallie:

If you have an hour or two of time, query on my moniker and bring up the 80 or so postings I've put up on 2+2. (The bulk of them are in this and Skall's Individual State Opt-Out Prediction Thread.) I address the numerous problems with the opt-out provision in several of my postings. However, I suspect you may be looking for a "Cliff Notes" summary of my objections, so here it is. The opt-out provision is fine - just as long as you don't live in a state that actually opts-out! If you suffer the misfortune of just happening to live in an opt-out state, then you're basically screwed as your ability to play online poker (at all) has been greatly impaired. The PPA's position with respect to their members who just happen to live in opt-out states boils down to: Be a good sport and take one for the team! After all, getting this bill passed is for the greater good of the most poker players. You understand ...

Also, Skall started his thread off confidently predicting that "less than five states" would opt-out. When LG challendged him to put money on his "prediction" - at 3:1 up to $5,000.00 - Skall suddenly turned into a deaf mute. Nobody really knows how many states are going to opt-out, but the PPA is being disingenuous with their members when they try to downplay this concern insisting that it will be a small number. Different people have different "guesstimates" of the number. My (conservative) guess is somewhere in the 15-20 range, but several folks disagree insisting that "more than ten" is highly unlikely. The objective truth (if there is such a thing) is that nobody has a clue since a lot of uncertainty and ambiguity swirls around the actual language of the opt-out clause in the actual bills. In one of my posts I list the verbatim text from the state opt-out clause on page 44 of Senator Menendez's bill. I'm not going to reproduce that text here, but the literal reading of S.1597 is that the Governor or "Chief Executive Officer" of each state has the sole discretion and authority to decide whether or not his state will opt out. That's my reading of the actual language of Senator Menendez's bill, but even that is in dispute since JPFisher55, (who is a practicing attorney in St. Louis), has opined that he doesn't believe a Governor alone can decide to opt-out - irrespective of what language is in Senator Menendez's bill.

If you read some of the early posts in Skall's "prediction" thread, you'll see some interesting commentaries and points of view. (The posts from folks in California and Massachusetts are interesting. One poster noted that if California opts-out, that will be like losing ten states since California's population is greater than the entire nation of Canada!) There are other "problems" with the opt-out provision, (which you can read in my other posts), but this is the "Cliff Notes" summary.

Former DJ
We've tried to engage you on this. We've asked you what you'd prefer to opt-outs. We've asked if you wish to abandon the fight in Congress. We've asked if you think the status quo can continue forever. We've shared the full rationale for this to you.

You've refused to discuss this, preferring instead to use it as a wedge issue. That's one reason (of many) I don't believe you are here in good faith.

Last edited by Rich Muny; 08-18-2010 at 05:32 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 08-18-2010, 05:23 PM   #1269
kikadell
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Re: HR 2267 Markup (Passed 41-22-1)

hasnt he passed the point of being libelous now?
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Old 08-18-2010, 05:32 PM   #1270
Rich Muny
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Re: HR 2267 Markup (Passed 41-22-1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonaspublius View Post
Just explain to me why part of the compromising you are talking about can't be related to the opt-out clause? Why can it not be jury-rigged to make it awfully hard to either opt out or crackdown on Stars/FTP/Cake/Cereus/other scorned networks?
For one, we don't write the bills. Another is that Congress isn't stupid. If the opt-out cannot be taken, our opponents will take note. We'd be branded as trying to force this on states like Utah and would lose support.

We saw this when our UIGEA regulation implementation delay bill went down in the 32-32 tie. The loss was largely caused by a provision (one not added by us, FWIW) in the bill that would have caused the delay to become permanent.

Quote:
From what we can see now the DoJ and Treasury have what they need to crackdown on poker, except a political go ahead and focus. Fine, go ahead and embrace easy guaranteed opt outs.
They had that go-ahead with passage of UIGEA. We rescinded it last month, but they'll get it back if we lose here.

Also, no one in embracing easy opt-outs. PPA is seeking to add rigor to the process.
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Old 08-18-2010, 07:04 PM   #1271
Schwallie
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Re: HR 2267 Markup (Passed 41-22-1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Former DJ View Post
Schwallie:

If you have an hour or two of time, query on my moniker and bring up the 80 or so postings I've put up on 2+2. (The bulk of them are in this and Skall's Individual State Opt-Out Prediction Thread.) I address the numerous problems with the opt-out provision in several of my postings. However, I suspect you may be looking for a "Cliff Notes" summary of my objections, so here it is. The opt-out provision is fine - just as long as you don't live in a state that actually opts-out! If you suffer the misfortune of just happening to live in an opt-out state, then you're basically screwed as your ability to play online poker (at all) has been greatly impaired. The PPA's position with respect to their members who just happen to live in opt-out states boils down to: Be a good sport and take one for the team! After all, getting this bill passed is for the greater good of the most poker players. You understand ...

Also, Skall started his thread off confidently predicting that "less than five states" would opt-out. When LG challendged him to put money on his "prediction" - at 3:1 up to $5,000.00 - Skall suddenly turned into a deaf mute. Nobody really knows how many states are going to opt-out, but the PPA is being disingenuous with their members when they try to downplay this concern insisting that it will be a small number. Different people have different "guesstimates" of the number. My (conservative) guess is somewhere in the 15-20 range, but several folks disagree insisting that "more than ten" is highly unlikely. The objective truth (if there is such a thing) is that nobody has a clue since a lot of uncertainty and ambiguity swirls around the actual language of the opt-out clause in the actual bills. In one of my posts I list the verbatim text from the state opt-out clause on page 44 of Senator Menendez's bill. I'm not going to reproduce that text here, but the literal reading of S.1597 is that the Governor or "Chief Executive Officer" of each state has the sole discretion and authority to decide whether or not his state will opt out. That's my reading of the actual language of Senator Menendez's bill, but even that is in dispute since JPFisher55, (who is a practicing attorney in St. Louis), has opined that he doesn't believe a Governor alone can decide to opt-out - irrespective of what language is in Senator Menendez's bill.

If you read some of the early posts in Skall's "prediction" thread, you'll see some interesting commentaries and points of view. (The posts from folks in California and Massachusetts are interesting. One poster noted that if California opts-out, that will be like losing ten states since California's population is greater than the entire nation of Canada!) There are other "problems" with the opt-out provision, (which you can read in my other posts), but this is the "Cliff Notes" summary.

Former DJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEngineer View Post
We've tried to engage you on this. We've asked you what you'd prefer to opt-outs. We've asked if you wish to abandon the fight in Congress. We've asked if you think the status quo can continue forever. We've shared the full rationale for this to you.

You've refused to discuss this, preferring instead to use it as a wedge issue. That's one reason (of many) I don't believe you are here in good faith.

+1. What do we do then? We can't get this passed without a state opt out. You should know this, we have pointed it out often. So I agree with TE here. What do you prefer that is better than what the PPA is doing now?

Options:

Opt-Out, possibly get bill passed, and have it be great for the high majority of players.

No Opt-Out clause, no chance of it passing, and being bad for 100% of players.

Hope for status quo? I'd say under 5% chance of it being around for more than 5 years
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Old 08-18-2010, 07:06 PM   #1272
Schwallie
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Re: HR 2267 Markup (Passed 41-22-1)

He is banned. Hooray
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Old 08-18-2010, 07:28 PM   #1273
PokerXanadu
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Re: HR 2267 Markup (Passed 41-22-1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPFisher55 View Post
PX, I doubt that we can get an opt-out provision requiring a new law. However, we don't need it. All we need is an opt-out provision that clearly requires that state opt out by a method lawful under the laws and constitution of that state. The present provision is ambiguous because it implies that a governors letter would suffice for a state to opt out even though a governor does not have such power under a state law or constitution.

In fact, an opt out provision requiring that the state opt out by any lawful means might be better than one just requiring a new state statute because some states (probably MO for one) would require an amendment to the state constitution to lawfully opt out. An amendment usually requires a public vote.
Quite right, JP. When I say "new legislative action" I don't just mean a legislative bill. It will take legislative action to either pass a bill where that is appropriate, or to put a state constitutional amendment on the public ballot where that is appropriate. So, what I mean really includes:

1. The state legislature has to decide to act in order to opt out. It can't just come from the Executive branch of government.

2. It has to be "new" action to opt out. The state or governor can't just say that what they already have on the books applies.

3. The action taken has to be lawful for the state.

I do think the current provision form in the Menendez bill would quite likely be applied this way in general, but stronger wording would make court action on the matter much less likely in all states.
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Old 08-18-2010, 10:18 PM   #1274
Rich Muny
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Re: HR 2267 Markup (Passed 41-22-1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwallie View Post
He is banned. Hooray
It's only a short break, but judging from http://groups.google.com/group/rec.g...51ca7be8?pli=1, I think he's seeking a longer term one.

Last edited by Rich Muny; 08-18-2010 at 10:24 PM.
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Old 08-18-2010, 10:52 PM   #1275
PokerXanadu
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Re: HR 2267 Markup (Passed 41-22-1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEngineer View Post
It's only a short break, but judging from http://groups.google.com/group/rec.g...51ca7be8?pli=1, I think he's seeking a longer term one.
+1. Now I think he should be banned - permanently. He turned this (my only and entire post on the subject):

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerXanadu View Post
Former DJ arrested, accused of scamming listeners of $25,000

LOL...No wonder he hasn't played iPoker in over a year.
into this (direct quote from his post on rec.gambling.poker linked by TE above):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Former DJ
This “PX” guy and “The Engineer” just couldn’t pass up the opportunity to take a cheap shot and “yuck it up” at my expense. PX posted a link to the internet article and promptly declared that I was the fired employee, even going so far as to declare that this was “proof” that I was “… a liar and a fraud” along with the blatant implication that myself and this fired radio station employee were one and the same person.
This is an obvious and blatant lie. I never declared he was the fired employee, never used the word "proof" and never wrote "a liar and a fraud". He is a bad hat (put in mild terms). Get rid of him.
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