I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I think it is actually a little tougher for females to improve in poker, and before everyone freaks out, let me explain.

From my point of view, and from personal experience, the fastest and best way to improve in online and live poker is to talk to/study with/play around better players. Lifestyle-wise, you just don't see houses full of female grinders toughing it out in a 1 bedroom apt having 20-hour group grinding sessions. lol. (this is a funny visual and feel free to insert your drug of choice )

And as far as live poker goes, there are not that many girls who are traveling 20 days out of the month on some live circuit and crashing 4 to a room in the hotel every night.

As far as I am concerned, it is this type of interaction with friends and players that makes you better, more than any book or video website out there. Discussing hands and lines and tactics and strategy with multiple people who have different playing styles is key.

Sure you can get pretty good by reading books and reviewing hh's and watching videos, but I really think it can only take you so far...

Could this be one reasonable explanation for why there are not more women in poker? Maybe they just feel like it's too hard to get better and so they avoid it for fear of not being as good as they would like to be? (This is not my main point of the thread, just a side-thought)

I see your point but I feel this could work the reverse way too....that an up and coming female player could be more easily accepted into higher stakes social circles and poker conversations because she is female, allowing her to get better faster than a comparable male player?

Anyway, I think your argument is interesting and makes me wonder, maybe we should start one or two strategy threads on TWSS? Even though there's no technical reason that they couldn't be on other parts of 2+2, isn't that true for a lot of other stuff in this thread? And still a lot of us are especially interested in posting and reading TWSS.

You demonstrate your solid grasp on logic by posting this.

I'm inclined to agree with you on this point. From my own experience, I was never much of a NLH tournament player. Last year I was introduced to a number of solid tournament players (thanks to the BF). In the course of spending time with them and discussing hands / strategy, my NLH game improved dramatically. It was as if an entirely new world was unveiled to me. I still play on nowhere near the level they play, but I have certainly seen an impact on my results.

I guess the question is how one can "break into" one of these groups.

lol. figured that guy's posts' time was limited itt.
Your post made me lol, Jamie

2+2 in general doesn't want to have multiple forums covering the same basic playing conditions for strategy. That's one reason it took a long time for the LLSNL forum to get permission to go (another was the fear that live players were so awful they'd give bad advice to each other making 2+2 look bad). As JMurder3 put it, we know there is going to be exceptions. However, a case will have to be made why neither of us could provide perfectly acceptable advice (beyond the fact that I'm a donk).

One alternative might be to post a strat thread in the appropriate forum, then provide a link for others to follow it here. I wouldn't have a problem with a thread that consisted of links to strat threads in other forums inviting TWSSers to look at it and comment there.

Why can't you make friends with guys, and spend most of your poker socializing time with them? I guess while I'm having a hard time imagining that other girls would have difficulty with this problem, as an old gamer and/or 'one of the boys' since high school I might be a bit biased on this one.

You 'break into' a group like that in the same way that anybody does. I have no idea how to explain it beyond this one, but... you make friends. (I'm told by members of my social circle that being at least 'pretty good' at poker helps a ton to start with, I guess?). Don't ask for special treatment, and just be yourself, and it tends to work out to mutual respect pretty quickly: it's more-or-less how you manage friendships in every guy-centric group of friends.

I strongly suspect that the girls who are better haven't spent nearly as much time contemplating the meta-social implications of their gender performance as they have studying, hand reviewing, getting coaching, reading books, posting on forums, and cultivating friendships etc that lead to improvement.*



*this is not to say there there aren't some definitely annoying aspects of being a female player. But your friends pick up pretty quick on what those are when they see them, and then tend to commiserate.

Don't "break in" a group, form one.

My personal experience is that you start off with responding to strat threads so people get to know you and you get to know who are the good posters. Then PM them when you have a more in-depth question or want to discuss a deeper subject that would derail the thread otherwise. Most people are flattered that you want to discuss a subject further with them.

Eventually, a lot of high level discussion will occur off the forum because you get tired of the trolling and bad advice. If there is an existing group, you may be invited in. Otherwise, you'll be creating your own group.

I guess I tend to agree with a lot of what ILR said in her post. I know tons of really good players of all different social and political backgrounds, and, almost without exception, they are willing to share information with people they respect as peers. Whether that means as colleagues, friends, or just as intellectual equals. Sure there are also some good players out there who fall victim to misogynistic tendencies, but I'd say that number, especially among internet players, is far smaller than in the general population.

That being said, I think it is harder for women than it is for men to make these connections for a couple reasons. First of all, even though, in my experience, good players are willing to make friends with just about anyone they see as a peer, their social conditioning may make it more difficult for a woman to break through that barrier. Put another way, it's impossible to totally eliminate outside influences about types of people from the way we see those people, no matter how we try.

Secondly, generally social sexual stratification also dictates the way men and women relate to one another. It's not a matter of wanting or not wanting to form these types of relationships with one another; rather, it's a matter of not having the social skills to relate to one another in a specific way.

I'm sorry if that's a bit imprecise, but my general point is that while it is more difficult for women to become "peers" with men in poker, that difficulty doesn't stem from poker, but from a socio-sexual dichotomy that has been socialized into us. In fact, I'd argue that it might be easier to make these friends within the poker world than in many other male dominated professions.

It's only anecdotal, but as someone who in my other life works in a heavily male-dominated field science, that has been my experience.

I had to try to beat the clock...I figured I had about 90 seconds to rebut before the mods banished him from TWSS.

For me, it's easy to have a conversation about poker with other male players. I think its because they're surprised that a girl plays poker and actually has some knowledge.

I have to say though, my poker 'community' (outside of the internet) really just consists of my boyfriend. He's always patient and gracious enough to answer my questions and I've learned a lot from him.

I'm not so sure it's a drug that most are visualizing inserting in that female group grinding scenario

Seriously though, its the mentality that makes the player. There are TONS of reasons someone can find for why its harder for them to improve vs others. For example, if I'm a single dad, it certainly makes it tougher to put in grinder hours, travel for tourneys, live with fellow grinders, etc. And I do see limitations. But know that everyone else has some too... and its my belief that our strengths are often the source of our weaknesses and vice versa. So focus on the benefits of being a female player if you think it could be a source of disadvantage. I've heard women say they think they can get a big edge by being a female... either through manipulating opponents, giving off an image that fits a stereotype, getting opponents to talk more to get info, etc. Science has also shown on average that females have some advantages picking up non-verbal communication clues (ie. tells).

So the point is that yes, there probably are some things that make it tough being a female. But there are also some things that make it tough being married, being a parent, being handicap, being young, being old, rich, poor, etc. Gotta play the cards you were dealt so to speak and use what you can to your advantage. Think positive... your differences can be an asset.

i dunno, jennifer harmon is awful good.

Im a male but on my first contact with poker I decided it was nice to open an account with a girls screename at a poker site just to see how the other players would play me and I can tell you it went very very wrong at first. I couldnt play my usual game cause no one respected my bets. The only way I had to win a pot (and when I play that account now it still feels like this) is to play for value with good hands period.

I think a woman has got to have a different set of skills than men to win at poker but I really dont think its harder for them. If anything its easier to clean the pockets of the overly aggro guys without a fold button

Jennifer Harman has Doyle's love and respect. He treats her almost like a daughter. That says a lot.

Former DJ

Judging by the amount of good poker female pros, I'd say its not tougher at all. If anything it's easier because you can distract the guys pretty easy.

forums and videos can get you really damn far

if you want it bad enough

I'm going to have to disagree with you almost entirely. A woman, if she chooses to, can improve her poker skills. The first flaw in your argument is to group all females in the housewives role... you are grouping all women into a category. A female poker player, isn't nessesarily going to have a suburban home, a husband, 2 kids, and a dog. For instance, I'm 23... not married and sharing a house with my brother. I play at poker houses with fellow poker players that just happen to be men. I play "World Tavern Poker" on occasion to get more of a tournament feel instead of cash game or online play and I hang out with people that enjoy poker and want to learn like I do. In addition, I read these forums and have just recently started posting.

The reason there hasn't been a lot of female bracelet winners is simply due to percentages. Bottom line: there are not enough women playing the game.

To counteract another statement you made: anyone can take it as far as they are willing to. If I study, read, and discuss with fellow players I can get better and build an online bankroll and from there travel to live tourneys, meeting new people and discussing and learning further, from there I can build more of a roll and join the circut... meeting more experienced people and building a bigger roll. There is no end to it. I can take it as far as I am willing to commit the time and hours. The fact I am of the opposit sex has nothing to do with it. When I am with the boys, I'm one of the boys.

When I'm with the poker players, I'm one of the poker players.

You're correct, being a boy or girl has nothing to do with it.

Thank you for that, I messed with my own logic

I understand what you are saying, but I think you may have misunderstood my post.

I understand the fact that a female poker player does not have to have a "suburban home, a husband, 2 kids, and a dog" as you state. I have been playing poker since 2004, I have a bf, I have been married, I have 2 dogs, 2 cats, 1 horse, 2 houses and 2 businesses. And I travel the world staying in any country or city I please for any length of time with many different friends playing the game that supports me. Am I the typical housewife?

The question is not to quantify a female's ability to improve vs. a male. The point is that the culture we live in/societal expectations we grow up with may prove it more difficult for a female to become a good poker player.

Obviously everyone is different, and everyone has different lifestyles and different cultural expectations. But whether we like it or not, poker is a male dominated activity - so there has to be some explanation(s) as to why this is. Obviously it is not because men are smarter than women. So what else is it? This is the question. My post poses one possible reason for the majority of males in poker: That because of our culture and the society we live in, it may be more difficult for a female to live the lifestyle required in becoming a very good poker player and that this may deter her from attempting to become the best player she can be.

My oblivious level has gone to a new high. For some odd reason I thought you were a male posting what you did and therefore I came off way more aggressive than I should have because I thought you were degrading women, but I understand your point to a degree but I still have to stand by my statements that you can go as far as you are willing to put in the work for.

lololol. Yup I'm def a girl

Obviously I agree that you will go so far as you are willing to commit...I believe that anyone male or female can become decent at anything they choose as long as they put their heart and soul into it. Even the great Bobby Fischer (I obv. have a chess background) said that chess is 10% natural ability and 90% hard work. I think this holds true with poker as well...

My point is that books, forums and videos will only take you so far. And for most poker players in the world, this is sufficient. The level at which I personally strive for on a daily basis cannot, imo, be attained simply by these methods. There is a point that they will get you to (can be high level) - but at some point living a nomadic or unconventional lifestyle becomes part of it, and that is not exactly something we see many females doing that much of/able to do in our society.

I just finished a week long ban for a comment I posted on this thread. I'm not going to repeat it--I wouldn't want to get accused of "trolling" again. However, I will say this:

Since when is a person not allowed to share a legitimate opinion on an issue? Granted, it may not be the popular or politically correct one, but that does not mean it deserves to be removed from the discussion.

I meant no offense with what I said. I was simply bringing a new perspective to the table.