This is not something that is actively occurring (TMK).

It's a semi-complex concept; but hear me out. This method could make billions.

It starts by providing the 'bot' or 'house player' two blank cards. While everyone else is actually dealt cards; the 'operator' for lack of a better word, gets two blank cards.

Now the RNG does RNG things. Determining flop, turn, and river.

Now it scans the remaining deck for a hand that beats the best active hand in that round. If it finds one; it replaces the blank cards with winning cards from the deck still in play.

You don't allow the bot to do this every single hand; you allow it to do it 1 in 20 hands...or 1 in 50...or 1 in 100 hands.

The RNG won't be impacted in RNG audits. Even external datamined databases wouldn't be able to pick up on it.

Recap:

Step 1: The bot receives blank cards.
Step 2: The RNG deals the community cards.
Step 3: The system checks the deck for winning cards.
Step 4: If a winning hand exists, it replaces the blanks.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I realize from a poker players perspective this is ridiculous. As a computer programmer; this would take me roughly 3 hours to implement; and the reason it would take that long is because I'm lazy and would smoke weed for 2 of those hours.

Edit: I wish I owned a casino or worked at one so I could rob you guys blind

How do you hide the code from auditors?

Full disclosure I know nothing about poker site RNG audits or software programing and my comment will likely make that obvious lol. If the audits are on regular schedule should be dam easy. According to the OP it only takes an hour to add. So likely only takes an hour to remove. Fwiw not a rig-tard. If I was I would have never spent the last 20+ years playing. I'd quit 19+ years ago and found another hobby.


Cheers!!!

Once you build it; it's as simple as activating it or deactivating it. If you mean physically removing the code from the code base; you'd create it as a an imported module and just delete the module. Nobody is checking the code though TMK -> So you would never need to touch it once implemented. The most anyone would likely do is obfuscate the code so it's hard to read. Deleting the file would take effort; and it would also create an obvious log on any VCS (version control system).

The reason it'd take only an hour; is due to it being an extension to something that's already built - that's also assuming you know the code base well enough to know where within the code to place the new code. If you had to build the entire poker room, it'd take much longer.

If implemented properly; you could keep it running indefinitely and it shouldn't impact RNG audits. The only place it could be sniffed out is by someone monitoring the actual hands the bot makes over long periods of time; and even then, with some effort you could distribute the hands in a more believable way than blindly providing the bot winning hands at random.

It's easy to implement, and would be undetectable on the RNG audit side; it may be detectable on any site offering hand history -> But it would be an exhaustive effort to do.

So presumably the bot is going to simply call off its stack, with potential garbage until the river? That won't look suspicious at all, particularly when it will either have been programmed to play like a normal bot previously or just be folding all the time till the "sting".

Also it's going to look very silly when it calls off its stack and its opponent has the nuts and the rigged rng can't help it. Or all the money goes in before the river vs the nuts and the rigprog has to work out what to do and show something.

So I go to reddit; and search 'Global Poker' just like I do on 2+2 from time to time and read the newest threads.

This guy spoke out same day I started this thread with a very similar idea (Maybe a little before or after -> Reddit doesn't give time stamps)




I don't 'KNOW' that this is occurring on GP. There is a big difference between 'knowing' and 'considering'.

It's interesting that two players from the same platform came up with very similar ideas on how to cheat. We were both influenced in this thought process by the hands occurring at GP.

I'm not saying the method is 'active' on GP. I'm saying both of us, for whatever reason, played on GP, and something clicked that made us think up the same method of cheating.

I'd put money that there is something that triggered the idea for both of us. Variance? Actual rig in the method we describe? Don't know.

This is exactly what's occurring though; it why I thought up the idea for cheating. I'm not saying they're using it, I'm saying exactly what you just described is what made me consider it. It will not look silly calling into the nuts; it occurs so infrequently that they wouldn't even have to program a fold for those situations.

There is no difference in showing at river or showing when all money goes in. It would select the best cards for that point in time relative to the other persons cards...if they exist within the remaining deck. It's almost silly how effortlessly it would be able to do so...it's the exact same as scanning with all streets already dealt. I say that; to really emphasize that the point you think is a point; is not one. It's silly.

Thanks for the informative reply. This thread will be interesting to keep reading despite fact I have very little knowledge on either topic or what's involved.


Cheers!!!

You said


There are two types of rng. In the first type the pack is shuffled and then dealt. Even if it was possible to use your scheme with that type, it would leave massive audit trails and would be easily discoverable, if anyone had the will to do so (unfortunately not a given, because of poor regulatory oversight). Note that your scheme wouldn't be at all necessary as all the information required to confirm that the bot has the best hand is available on the game server as soon as the hand is dealt. So that would easily allow the bot or any insider to win without any interference in the shuffle coding.

The second type is continually shuffling,where the cards yet to be dealt aren't held in the server, but given that you are moving from "continual shuffle" to "shuffled and dealt" after the flop for your scheme, still easily discovered on audit. Also, if you have the technical ability to move from continual shuffle to shuffled and dealt, why not just do that and wait for the bot to have winning hands and play them strongly.

You also dismissed my scenarios above, but you don't seem to realise how even at the lowest levels players notice particularly unusual patterns of play which would be exhibited by your scheme. There are also plenty of less complex ways for operators to cheat including simply being able to see cards, so your idea seems absurd even if it was practical.

I actually did address the scenarios you listed.

Why would an operator go through all that trouble to make the game crooked when they can print money by running an honest game with a high rake?

I sincerely wonder at this point if people asking this question are genuinely asking in good faith.

I guess I have no evidence to suggest that sites would cheat, or how they would abuse liquidity pools for their own financial needs.

I guess some things there is just no evidence of.

It's too bad that there is no paper trail of a history of activity that profits the site owners at the sake of the consumer.

Each of those links is an example of site owners running crooked games or abusing the liquidity for their own needs or just blatantly taking player funds.

To answer your question; "Because they can...because it makes money"

--------------------------------------------------

It's my belief the next scandal will be at lower stakes....for a variety of reasons.

1.) Only high stakes are taken seriously

2.) Low stakes players often too unskilled to catch on.

3.) Rake is % based now; a lot of the time. The argument for rake being the deciding factor on what level to cheat at; no longer applies.

4.) Low stakes players not taken seriously.

The above is the same reason there is a higher rate of crime against people with mental disabilities....they are easier targets. The poker community has overwhelmingly clowned on low stakes players; so they are the perfect mark.

At high stakes I'd be concerned players would be too aware to cheat them as blatantly as you could elsewhere. I mean cheating Phil Ivey is going to be harder than cheating John Doe the recreational Poker Joker.

There's plenty of cheating going on at the low stakes, but it's just bot farms taking money from real players.

They don't need to super use to take the money.

Another legal way they could make more money is to just increase the rake.

I buy bullion and also factory sealed TCG boxes.

For bullion, there are multiple types you can get. Some cost 2x spot price. F--- that. I'm not buying their bullion.

For TCG boxes, they rapidly raise price after release; f--- that, I'm not buying that box.

When a casino raises rake; the players will say f--- that, I'll play on a lower raked site.

So while I understand the people who defend these casinos; I disagree fundamentally because it operates under the assumption people look for legal ways to do things, instead of just doing whatever the f--- they want; and simultaneously that casinos aren't run by shitheads trying to take every last penny from anyone they can, in any way they can.