Bluff this returned from his self-exile in true form in another thread, but I felt it warranted additional discussion on its own.

His post is below and my basic question is, does the PPA need 2+2 to succeed?

I'm sorry but I do not have any facts or other information to suggest that any members of the board of directors of the PPA need to resign. I am a full member of the PPA and quite satisfied with its board of directors.
I am not sure that the PPA needs 2+2 to succeed. In addition, it is possible that, in time, Mason's position may cost him readership on these forums and some business.

JPF,

Read the last part of my quoted post above about even if you think we're wrong. Perception is often more important in politics than facts.

And how exactly does the PPA not need 2p2? Do they have a forum of their own with *viable* traffic? No. Do they have any other venue where they can quickly reach thousands of member poker players who are willing to act? No. At least not if the alternative is a mass email that isn't able to target the most active of their membership. Does the PPA have any other place where there are industry and politics insiders and knowledgeable attorneys whose brains can be picked? Not that I'm aware of.

I suggest that if you and others are going to take a "I'm not sure" position in response to Berge's question, that you should instead quantify that. 2p2 has to be important on a scale of 1 to 10. When you know precisely where on that scale 2p2 is, then you know also how much effort and accomodation should be made to the concerns of posters on 2p2 and Mason himself.

And tell me something else. Even if you don't personally have a problem with the PPA board being dominated by online affiliate farm interests who cannot benefit from, and thus are less likely to see the PPA help promote, certain forms of poker like intra-state and B&M, would you if you were one of those board members be willing to resign for the good of the PPA? The higher up the scale of importance of 2p2 to the PPA, then the more willing you *should* be to do so.

This is absurd.

This is like what's left over from Ivory's 99 44/100% pure fighting about who's more important. The truth is neither are more important in the grand scheme of things.

The vast majority of the poker playing population--the 99 and 44/100%--do not know about either the PPA or 2+2. Do you understand that??? 2+2 is important to SOME online poker players--among the ones still playing--but totally unimportant to the ones who WOULD BE PLAYING if the PPA is successful. 2+2 is important to us, but the rest of the world could give a fat rat's derierre.

I'm a supporter of 2+2, but I'm in the same position here as I was before the invasion of Iraq. I can't criticise without being considered a Communist. Well, at the risk of offending some people I'd rather not, I'm going to anyway...

This is totally and utterly ridiculous and I'm appalled!

C'mon, Mason, gimme a break. While you may have good reasons in your own mind, in the minds of your customers you're out of your mind. Frankly, 2+2 did nothing before the passage of the UIGEA to prevent it, to educate poker players, and has since done nothing to repeal it. You've sold a bunch of books. You haven't done what the PPA is at least trying to do.

In my eyes, the PPA is the one who's gaining respect, while 2+2 is losing it. You are, simply, wrong. (and sadly unlikely to change your mind.)

So, in conclusion, I believe in this case, 2+2 needs the PPA much more than the PPA needs 2+2. If the PPA fails, there's nothing to take it's place, the market shrinks further, and you sell fewer books over time. Duh. The PPA has made it this far without 2+2 at all. The only thing to come out of 2+2 which has been of great help to the PPA is The Engineer, if that's a true statement at all.

Stop this nonsense before it hurts us further. And stop acting like Democrats. Sheesh.

CJ--a member of the Democratic Party and as such, his views should be taken as the policy of the Democratic Party.

I think this is a great question.

I think the PPA DOES need 2+2.
I also think 2+2 needs the PPA.

2+2 provides a congregating place for all things that a poker player cares about. Poker instruction, like minded conversation, news, etc. There are many reasons to come to this site. As a result it provides an organization like the PPA, an easy place to communicate with many people who are concerned with their cause. In fact there probably is no greater concentration of these people than what 2+2 provides. As a result, I say the PPA needs 2+2.

In the last year however, we've all seen how much our passtime (and income) can be threatened by legislation. 2+2 provides a great place to comizerate (sp?) and cry together, but what good does that do? We've got a few posters who come up with great ideas and make great leaders (The Engineer), and can stir people to action on a certain level, but we need more than that. We need political action. We need people with political ties like Al D'Amato. We need fly-ins to Washington DC. We need someone to set up a grass roots structure by designating a representative for each state to track events and coordinate efforts there. I haven't seen that on 2+2 but I do see it from the PPA.

The PPA may have issues, I get that. Something is better than nothing.

If we get no political action, the forces against us remain unchecked in the political arena, the poker community will dwindle as it won't be worth it to fight hard just to play poker in a contracting rock garden. It won't be profitable, and it won't be worth the effort just for some fun.

The PPA needs 2+2 for the people they provide. 2+2 needs the PPA to keep fighting in the politcal arena so that there is a reason for 2+2's people to keep coming back.

One last thing, specifically for Mason. We've got a ton of threads on the whole Engineer thing and I see both sides, fine, enough on that. Please be careful with someone who has motivated so many of us to do things that we wouldn't have otherwise done. I appreciate the board, and all the hard work that goes into this place. But for all of us who have been writing letters, making phone calls, and getting politically involved for the benefit of all poker players, it was the Engineer who caused most of that. Not 2+2. Not You. Work with this man to keep him here, show him the respect he deserves, because while you may make a profit off this site, he did it all for free, for the good of the game, and accomplished amazing things. Lets not drive those people away. We need them now more than ever. Perhaps at this point in time, more than 2+2 or the PPA.

And do YOU not understand that isn't what is important? The statistic that *is important*, is what percentage of active, letter writing and phone calling members of the PPA are also 2p2'ers. And where is the place most likely to induce more members to such active measures. This is the same as in politics where it's not just registered voters, but those most likely to in fact vote, who are the most sought after.

[censored] 2+2.

I don't post here often but I do read the legislation board every day and do the things asked of us by TE in his weekly action threads.

This situation is complete BS and I won't be visiting this site or buying anymore 2+2 books.

I'm curious whether you are also mad at the CP mag and affiliate farm board members of the PPA who could resign but won't because of either their vested interests tied to only certain forms of online poker, or their animus against 2p2? Will you also be boycotting CP magazine and urging your friends not to sign with affiliates advertised on their website?

Bluff This,

Please go back into hibernation where ever you were.

PPA has done more for MY poker interests in a week than you have EVER.

Nobody but nobody cares a fig what you think.

Tuff

Let's see. We have crummy laws that make it difficult for many people to fund their poker accounts, and there is a major online cheating scandal. Meanwhile, many of the people here are on Tilt, playing Russian Roulette, and we are eating our young.

Tuff,

Quick question. When you were at the D.C. flyin, were board members Allyn Schulman, Linda Johnson, Jan Fisher and Mary Magazine also there? And did you have any discussions with them relevant to the issues of concern here regarding the board composition and transparency?

Also please keep one thing in mind. You are after all a fish, i.e. losing poker player, albeit one who can afford to do so. So your opinions on anything can't really be given a lot of credence. Unless of course you're playing at my table and donating. In that case I'm willing to cave into some of your demands including a percentage back of your losses. After all, it's the fish like you we want and not all these weak-tighties!

"I'm curious whether you are also mad at the CP mag and affiliate farm board members of the PPA who could resign but won't because of either their vested interests tied to only certain forms of online poker, or their animus against 2p2? Will you also be boycotting CP magazine and urging your friends not to sign with affiliates advertised on their website?"


I don't read CP but that has nothing to do with this issue.

I'm not backing up the PPA. I am however backing up TE. He has done nothing but help our cause and Mason is being ridiculous in his demands.

Anyone that reads here knows TE is on the PPA board. He shouldn't have to sign every post like he is representing the PPA.

Anyway this issue has been discussed in enough threads. Most people are on TE's side and hopefully they will follow him off 2+2.

The question at issue is not whether 2p2 needs some of you, but whether the PPA needs 2p2. I presume you are saying the PPA does not in fact need 2p2 or you would stay and put up with things you disagree with for the overall good of the cause wouldn't you?

If you are being serious, you are a bigger fool than i thought. Just because someone is bad at poker does not mean that they are not capable of making superior arguments to your own.

No it doesn't mean that 100%. But it does mean that the probability is very high such is in fact the case. And if you don't see why you aren't really a 2p2'er. If you can't play +EV then you most likely don't think very well. Or maybe Sklansky and Mason are full of [censored] in all their math and poker writings.

Tuff

I posted my thoughts on TE specifically in the "TE is Yellow" thread so I wont repeat them here.

On the specific question, does the PPA NEED 2+2, the answer is no. But can the PPA use 2+2 and can that be a very effective use? The answer to that is clearly yes. Yes, simply because 2+2 to its credit, but maybe more so to the credit of its posters (like TE and even you Bluff) is THE place to read and talk about poker.

Do political candidates need CBS or NBC? Well, there are other methods of getting the message out, they just are not as quick and easy. But if political candidates could not advertise on those stations, dont you think they, and the viewers who would be interested in what they have to say (OK, here the analogy does break down a bit ) would find something else that works? Of course they would.

In that sense 2+2 does have a little bit to lose too; its not likely to continue to be the place for cutting edge poker-related political and legal discussion/information that it is now - and that has certainly enhanced (to some degree) 2+2's reputation in the poker community.

Skallagrim

Today's PPA definition of success, may not be the same as most player's or 2+2's. But yes, PPA needs the fine help of 2+2 PLUS several minor miracles in a row "to succeed" as I think of success. Without 2+2, it would be ugly.

HERE HERE

HERE HERE

Well you're getting closer.

The most sought after are the ones capable of registering new voters and getting them and the already registered to the right polls on time ready to vote your way.

This movement really is at the crutical "tipping point."

We either move forward and take a shot at winning or all dig in for the long hard slow fight.

Quite likely this is why this issue has been pushed to the forefront RIGHT now.

The PPA is NOT strong enought to stand on it own, nor really ready to "spring" into action.

2+2 and 2+2er's have done a good deal of the heavy lifting in the name of the PPA or not. To date the PPA for the most part gets all the credit.

But the PPA is excedingly weak now. As a Grassroots organization "we" have an expensive e-mail list of 800k names, a weak structure, over 2 years of time and something north of 4 million spent to date; and are still a fledgeling "infant" organization with less than 1/30 of the community and less than 10% active membership participation.

In political terms of where we need to be we have a decent outline and a lot of hope.

As I've said in the past this in no way takes away from the very hard work that has been done and the great progress that has been accomplished recently. We really do good PR!

The PPA is currently hamstrung for money. It is a sad fact of building your numbers from the least committed.

So we die an infant death and one of great promise but get strangled from our history and todling misteps, or we get back up and get ready to just train for the apporaching marathon.

As all things in reality it is up to "we" the members of the larger community and each of the smaller "communities" to decide if we have the heart for this fight.


D$D

I am an online poker player. I do not play live poker and do not want to play live poker. Thus, the affiliate farms, online poker sites and poker magazines who profit from advertisements from online poker sites represent my interests just fine.
As for who needs who. The best situation for both is a symbiotic one. IMO, Mason needs to understand that and maybe work at bit harder to achieve it. Recently, the PPA has finally realized it and taken steps to achieve it. IMO putting TE on its board of directors was one such step taken by PPA.

How can there be a mutual symbiotic relationship with a lopsided board representation? Why can't the online interests you mention be the ones to also work a little harder at this? Just how damn bad is it to change out a couple board members and have better transparency?

Bluffthis, who would be better on PPA's board? It has several poker pros, some industry reps, a noted politician and at least one, TE, player and organizer? Do you really think that more players will help? I don't think so. Would more B&M interests help? I don't think so and they may not be on our side.
So how is the board lopsided? All the members have an interest in online poker being successful, profitable and becoming legal in US to the point that some online poker providers can be based in US.

A lot of you want to use the NRA as a role model for the PPA. Fair enough. Just like the NRA has to get to hunters, the PPA has to get to the casual poker players. So how do you fit 2p2 into the analogy? Were not the gun manufacturers and with a few exceptions were not crazy militia members in the Montana woods. We are the gun show dealers. We(for the most part) make a damn good living off poker, either as just players, or as affiliates and players.
2p2 is where the shock troops are. We can either spread the word that the PPA is a good or bad thing. How many poker playing people can you reach for free in a day? Theres a few thousand of us here who can reach six figures easily on short notice. You can double that number maybe if you add up the other forums including the sportsbook ones.


D$D's outline of how much money has been spent for such pitiful results should make the question in the post rhetorical. Like gun show dealers who buy and sell with no oversight we have the most to gain or lose in this fight. And the PPA still does NOT have 2p2 behind it. Despite everyone standing up to rip Bluff how many people are 100% willing to vouch for whose side the PPA is on long run? Its not the players because they dont call the shots or have ANY
method of influencing decisions. So the PPA can keep trying
to reach around a large set of motivated individuals or enlist them by ceding some power and control. Whats the PPA's long term goal? To keep the same board and executive makeup in perpetuity? If we get to 2 million members, will they ever have a say? Are you going to disband if ANtigua does all our heavy lifting? Or are you really going to back up your words about representing poker players in all all legislative areas? If that is so, then make a start now by reaching an agreement with Mason and 2p2, if something reasonable can be reached, and set a DATE, a year or two away, when all the controlling board seats will be up for election. ALL.