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Old 02-01-2014, 03:58 PM   #2351
Mossberg
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

I don't think it would cost you much to try to reclaim that 20k. It should be fairly straightforward based on what you describe in your post, and my current understanding of the poker taxation situation. I also think you probably should not pay for 2013 (especially if you are going to attempt to reclaim the 20k). With that said, it's probably best to talk this over with a lawyer who knows about this stuff. PM me if you would like a recommendation.
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Old 02-06-2014, 06:57 PM   #2352
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Thanks for the advice guys.

I think the main concerns I have are:

1) The cost & complication of filing for the 20k adjustment. What is the likelihood of getting paid out and the cost associated with the tax lawyer (if it is necessary to have one).

2) The implications of this adjustment request (successful or unsuccessful) moving forward. I don't want to cause more harm than good in making trying to get the refund.

@Mossberg , I am not allowed to send PM's on my account yet. Maybe you could send me an email for a recommendation. (peter.kshonze@gmail.com)

Thanks.
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Old 02-13-2014, 06:15 PM   #2353
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Can anyone recommend a tax lawyer in Calgary? Looking to talk to someone about the possibilities of filing an amendment to the last 4 years returns, and how to proceed going forward (not filing as a professional anymore).
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Old 02-15-2014, 12:42 AM   #2354
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

I don't think it's necessary to find someone who is in your area. More important to find someone who specializes in taxation of gambling winnings. I was able to get all the information and help I needed just by talking to someone over the phone.
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Old 02-15-2014, 02:59 AM   #2355
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxGuru View Post
Text I put together for a possible op-ed ...

Poker Players Get Fair Deal

Winning poker players face a tough decision every April—to report or to not report. If they choose not to report their poker winnings as income, they may be on the wrong side of the tax law. If they are found to be professional poker players, they will face interest and penalties in addition to the tax they would otherwise have had to pay on their net winnings. Moreover, they may forever face a higher risk of unpleasant tax audits from the CRA. On the other hand, if they report their poker winnings as income, the CRA will be happy for them to pay tax on their winnings. But by volunteering to pay, they may regard themselves as patsies. The taxation of gambling winnings is a grey area in tax law, and no self-respecting poker player wants to be a patsy.

With a recent judgment by the Federal Court in Radonjic, tax matters are now a little more certain, predictable and fair for winning poker players. Of course, Canadian gamblers have long known that generally their losses are not deductible and gains are not included in income. The grey area surrounds an idea that the courts have also embraced, which is that professional gamblers are taxable on winnings. The courts have yet to find that a poker player is a taxable professional, leaving winning players in the confounding dilemma of deciding whether to report or not to report. This is where the recent Federal Court decision in Radonjic (2013) comes in to clarify matters.

Peter Radonjic had started playing poker full-time in 2003 and was winning. To be better safe than sorry, shortly thereafter he decided that he would include his poker winnings as income on his tax return, which he did for several years. After discussion with other poker players, Radonjic had a change of heart. In 2011 he filed amended tax returns with the CRA for the years, requesting that the income tax he had paid be returned to him on the basis that his poker winnings had not been taxable income. The CRA refused. Radonjic unsuccessfully exhausted the CRA appeals process before successfully challenging the decision in Federal Court.

In the Federal Court judgment in Radonjic, Justice Russell made a number of clarifying observations. First, as a matter of logic, Justice Russell explained that the fact that a taxpayer at poker won is not evidence that a taxpayer had a system to win at poker. Second, playing poker on a computer on an intense and regular basis over an extended period of time is not itself evidence of a system to win at poker. Third, he explained that most poker players study, practice and try to improve their skills. If an online poker player attempts to improve and wins, it does not mean they have devised a system to win at poker. Fourth, cutting back on other work and income while winning at poker is no indicator of a system to win at poker. Being able to work less is one of the fruits of successful gambling, just as having to work more may be one of the results of unsuccessful gambling. Finally, poker players will as a practical matter need to keep records to prove the source of funds for tax purposes; having records does not indicate anything about the character of the underlying gambling activity. Justice Russell has narrowed the grey area for winning poker players.

The conceptual challenges for the Minister with respect to the taxation of gambling gains of poker players are now substantial. Prior to Radonjic, it was clear that there is a strong legal presumption that gambling winnings and losses are beyond the reach of the Canadian income tax. This presumption now appears to be stronger in the aftermath of Radonjic. The challenge for the government relates to showing that an individual poker player is carrying on the business of playing poker professionally when the Minister cannot validly rely on the player’s winning record, the player’s intense play over a long period of time, the player’s attempts to improve, the player’s reliance on gambling for a livelihood, or the player’s keeping (or not keeping) of records. It is difficult to imagine how the government would be able to demonstrate that a poker player is a professional without relying on any of these considerations.

Perhaps it is reasonable to bet that things just got a little bit more certain, predictable and fair for winning poker players.
that's a good read right there
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Old 02-28-2014, 01:48 PM   #2356
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

TaxGuru : Do you handle any case right now related to the CRA and poker ? PM me details if so, I'm quebec resident and my local CRA has been a total pain, I might be looking to change my lawyer.
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Old 02-28-2014, 03:11 PM   #2357
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Any good tax laywers/accountants in the Montreal area?
If so , please PM me. I badly need one.
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Old 03-10-2014, 12:09 PM   #2358
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

thoughts on this?
http://www.canadapoker.com/canada-cr...n-the-horizon/
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Old 03-12-2014, 12:03 PM   #2359
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Thanks for the link.
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Old 03-12-2014, 12:05 PM   #2360
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by homeboy604 View Post
Thread already about it here

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...rizon-1424382/
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Old 04-02-2014, 04:55 PM   #2361
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Does anyone know of a good poker tax accountant in or around Toronto? If so, please PM me.
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Old 04-02-2014, 07:08 PM   #2362
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

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Originally Posted by homeboy604 View Post
I am not totally familiar with all the details about what initiated Black Friday however from what I do know wasn;t it something to do with the interaction between online processors from Pokerstars and banks and misleading transaction details. Who is to say the same thing is not happening now in Canada. I have echeque set up and when I do a transaction all it says is echeque transaction and gives a number associated with it. It does not refer to anything about gambling or poker or golf balls, lol. So who knows...
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Old 04-03-2014, 11:54 PM   #2363
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Full tilt/ pokerstars banking question

I have echeque set up on these sites and am in Canada, I have read the article in the Canadian tax thread on possible government interaction in some form on online poker whether it be taxation or banning altogether. On online transactions it simply states "echeque" with a transaction number. What does my bank think this is? Is there anymore information exchanged between the processors and my bank that does not show up on my statement? Just curious based on that thread that maybe the government could have intel info. Pure speculation but as a player, want to try and be as informed as possible. Basically what is different now in the interactions between their processors and our banks than before. I ask based on that article and the lack of detail on transactions.

Thanks!
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Old 04-05-2014, 03:03 PM   #2364
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Did anyone file using turbotax canada? I'm trying to figure out how to declare gambling winnings on there but can't find any options for that.

Are we just expected to not even list that income given that its not taxed?
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Old 04-05-2014, 04:02 PM   #2365
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

^yes, my understanding is that you do not list it if you are taking the stance that it is not taxable income (rightly so).
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Old 04-05-2014, 09:42 PM   #2366
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

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Originally Posted by ibavly View Post
Did anyone file using turbotax canada? I'm trying to figure out how to declare gambling winnings on there but can't find any options for that.

Are we just expected to not even list that income given that its not taxed?
You have to use the CRA industry code for gambling (I Don't remember what it is off the top of my head) and file as if self employed running a business.

On a side note, is anyone that has declared poker income in previous years taking the stance that it is not taxable due to that recent court ruling?

Really lost on what to do. Have declared for the past 5 years and considering not to this year
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Old 04-05-2014, 11:39 PM   #2367
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

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Originally Posted by TheFunBegins View Post
You have to use the CRA industry code for gambling (I Don't remember what it is off the top of my head) and file as if self employed running a business.
It does not sound like he is taking the stance that his winnings are taxable, so your advice does not apply.

Quote:
On a side note, is anyone that has declared poker income in previous years taking the stance that it is not taxable due to that recent court ruling?

Really lost on what to do. Have declared for the past 5 years and considering not to this year
After 7 years of paying, I was advised to take the stance that my winnings are not taxable (in light of the recent Radonjic case). I highly recommend that you discuss this with a lawyer. Let me know if you need a recommendation.
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Old 04-06-2014, 11:06 AM   #2368
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

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Originally Posted by Mossberg View Post
Let me know if you need a recommendation.
PM sent, greatly appreciated!
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Old 04-08-2014, 07:34 PM   #2369
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

I'll be filing an adjustment, hopefully by next week. My case is similar to the Radonjic case, and in my opinion, even more in my favor. I too claimed the income to play it safe. I only claimed for 3 years, my winnings were much lower, and I'm still within the 3 year cutoff for filing an adjustment for my final year of playing.

I burnt out on poker by the end, my bankroll dwindling as I played poorly through a downswing, and was left with roughly 10k in taxes to pay. I had no source of income to pay off the taxes owing. I still owe the majority of it. It'd be nice to have that cleared up, as it's been a major source of stress over the past several years.

Does anyone know of someone that could help advise me? I can't afford a lawyer or accountant at this point as I'm close to bankruptcy.
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Old 04-13-2014, 05:04 PM   #2370
TheFunBegins
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Has anyone else filed an adjustment or is planning on filing an adjustment due to the Radonjic case?
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Old 04-13-2014, 08:13 PM   #2371
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

I don't understand why this thread exists. In Canada, we don't pay anything on poker winnings. Someone aware me please.
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Old 04-14-2014, 11:00 AM   #2372
Mossberg
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

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Originally Posted by ktnxbye View Post
I don't understand why this thread exists. In Canada, we don't pay anything on poker winnings. Someone aware me please.
Because it is not quite as simple as you make it out to be. If you are carrying on the "business" of poker, you are taxable in Canada. Many of us understood the criteria for what constitutes "business activities" to be something that applied to our poker playing, due to the frequency of our play, our attempts to improve, our past results, etc. So, if you follow some of the recent pages in this thread, you'll see that many Canadians have been paying taxes on their poker winnings. Due to the outcome of the Radonjic case from last year, our understanding/interpretation of the criteria has shifted (clearly in our favor). However, poker playing is still judged on an individual basis and can still, in theory, be taxable income.
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Old 04-15-2014, 10:12 PM   #2373
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Given the court case spoken about above, wouldn't staking fall into the same category? If me playing poker isn't taxable then why would giving money to others to play with be? If anything, horses are rarely long-term winners themselves and with the high risk of theft/losses I would think that logically the staking profits should not be taxable either.

Can anyone chime in on this? I've paid taxes for the last 5 years but last year was the first year I staked more than a few people. The variance is so high in staking, could I take the stance that the staking business is still too early to be deemed a taxable poker endeavor?
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Old 04-15-2014, 10:29 PM   #2374
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Staking is harder to defend on the case law because unlike gambling itself, it does not have the same "personal" element to it. In other words, it is arguable that staking is more like investing in a really speculative market than it is like playing poker. On the other hand, one might well try to resist that characterization by arguing that staking is itself a form of gambling (and for that reason has a similar "personal" element to it). I am not sure that I find this counter-argument convincing, though it is plausible that a good lawyer could convince a judge of its merit.
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Old 04-16-2014, 06:39 AM   #2375
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxGuru View Post
Staking is harder to defend on the case law because unlike gambling itself, it does not have the same "personal" element to it. In other words, it is arguable that staking is more like investing in a really speculative market than it is like playing poker. On the other hand, one might well try to resist that characterization by arguing that staking is itself a form of gambling (and for that reason has a similar "personal" element to it). I am not sure that I find this counter-argument convincing, though it is plausible that a good lawyer could convince a judge of its merit.
Is this your stance towards all sorts of staking , or long term staking?
if someone randomly bought a piece of a friend and won some money , is that taxable ? or does it also fall under the gambling section since it is done rarely?
what about some people who swap percentages in tournaments or something along those lines?
i of course understand that someone who has a whole stable would more likely to be looked at as an actual investor with long term expectations ,but i am curious how a short term investor who is practically just " gambling " would be perceived.
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