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Old 06-03-2010, 07:24 PM   #1276
Abbaddabba
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

I've found his information useful.

(thanks for the info torontotfc)

I know he isn't going to do the procedural work on a forum. I just wanted to get general advice from as many people who work in the field as possible, and all seem to agree to just play now and if the situation comes up - you will most likely be able to sort it out later.

Honesty - the way the tournament director was speaking to me, it sounded like he was hinting that in the event of big cashes, they might make exceptions and process the paperwork but he just didnt want to commit to it so that they wont have to process it for all the small cashes too.
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Old 06-03-2010, 08:28 PM   #1277
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

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Originally Posted by npknhldr View Post
Asking for legal/tax advice in this thread is like asking medical/diagnostic questions of a nurse.
Not really. TorontoCFE and TaxGuru are both very competent and helpful.
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Old 06-03-2010, 10:51 PM   #1278
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

TorontoCFE did my taxes and kicked some serious butt...even got my common-law gf (--->me) a $1600 refund based on my medical/travel expenses. A little unresponsive sometimes but overall got the job done and very reasonably priced.
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Old 06-04-2010, 03:29 AM   #1279
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Germack View Post
I am declaring my poker income since 2008. I got a call from CRA yesterday inquiring about the poker income I declared on my income tax return for 2009. I told them truthfully that the money is coming from playing poker part time. The agent told me then that gambling winnings are not taxable in Canada and that they will refund the taxes I paid on my poker income.

What should be my next steps?
Should I just keep quite? Ask for a refund of the poker taxes I paid in 2008? Contact Revenu Quebec and ask for a refund too?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TorontoCFE View Post
You got lucky.
When you get your reassessment back, send it to provincial tax guys and
ask for a reassessment due to inclusion ofnon-taxable income.

That reassessment is also you future get out of jail free card.
I've been trying to keep up with this thread off and on now for a couple of years. Is CRA's official stance "that gambling winnings are not taxable in Canada" wrt poker? Or did Germack just luckily run into the right agent who does not distinguish between gambling and poker and another agent may have said that it is taxable?

I assume the advice that I should not declare poker income under 60k winnings + 15k in bonuses still applies?
At the same time, should I be putting enough away out of my winnings in case they say I have to pay back taxes?

Thanks for the great work itt Henry and TorontoCFE.
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Old 06-04-2010, 08:25 AM   #1280
TorontoCFE
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Well, the government's official stance is that online poker is illegal.
The CRA's official stance is that professional players are taxable (otherwise they would not be taking cases to court).
In practice, frontline employees are like 1% to recognize this (maybe 10-20% of auditors).

As such, even if you would likely be found taxable in a court, most data-entry level people who see your returns will make a mistake and say you aren't (they don't know enough to look closely, aren't qualified to make judgment calls and most people report "gambling winnings" and not business income)
They will auto consider you to be a hobby player and say you aren't taxable.
Once you get someone at the CRA to say that in writing, you can then forever after not declare and pull out CRA's decision that you aren't taxable and proof.
This would make you pretty safe from any penalties and actually paying taxes.

Experience shows if you say your poker $ is business or self employment income (even if you specify poker as the business) you will be taxed and if you just say gambling income you won't be.

All is subject to vary and YMMV.
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Old 06-04-2010, 01:45 PM   #1281
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

So you're saying I should put it on my return as 'gambling' winnings instead of leaving it off altogether if I understand correctly.

Thanks!
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Old 06-05-2010, 01:02 PM   #1282
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Let's say I min-cash in the wsop me ($20K ish) and I sold say 50% my action in shares. If they won't accept a 5754 form when I cash, could I just submit it afterwards when I try to get the tax witholding back?

And what does everybody think of sites like casinotaxrebate.com for this purpose?
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Old 06-05-2010, 04:47 PM   #1283
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

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Originally Posted by JH1 View Post
So you're saying I should put it on my return as 'gambling' winnings instead of leaving it off altogether if I understand correctly.

Thanks!
If you're a pro then call it elf-employment income and be taxed.
If you aren't a pro don't include it at all.
If you are a pro and mislabel it as gambling income, odds are it will be
thought of as #2 above and you won't be taxed and can also claim
in the future you tried but the CRA refused and you will almost
certainly be ok in the future) but its not really right - you are mislabelling your
income to achieve this. You are probably % safe, but still..
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Old 06-06-2010, 01:26 AM   #1284
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Yeah I'm not a "pro" as in making my living off of it. I still have a full time job. But poker winnings are awfully close to, if not slightly more than my salary. By then end of the year I expect poker to make up 60% of my total income.

Would obviously claim as self-employed if I quit my job, but was unsure what to do in this inbetween grey area.
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Old 06-06-2010, 06:27 AM   #1285
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

To Toronto CFE or any one else who has any idea:

I've been playing for a living and filing taxes on those winnings for several years. On my tax return it's labled as self-employment income. I probably average 20 hours week playing over the past few years

I have been considering opening up a new business as a consultant and If I were to work about 30 hours/week in that new business and I played poker on the side would my poker income be taxable still?

I would expect my poker income to be 1/2 of what it is currently but still a significant income source. It is quite possible that my poker income would be greater then my new business income but probably not by much. Overall I expect my overall income level to remain roughly the same it's just instead of 100% coming from poker, I would expect it to be 50% from the new business and 50% from poker or possibly 60% from the new business and 40% from poker. Who knows, It's quite possible that my income still might be 70% from poker even when I am still doing 30-40 hours week on my new business.

Will I still have to declare both incomes or in this case will my taxable income be limited to my "new business"? Will poker then be considered a hobby and not be taxable?

Overall, the hours I would be working between the 2 would increase slightly but it would prob be a 2:1 ratio of business/poker

I would have asked my accountant already but he is in the hospital due to a stroke.

Thanks
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Old 06-06-2010, 05:32 PM   #1286
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

if you can live off non=poker income then you are likely safe
not declaring poker income.
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Old 06-06-2010, 06:03 PM   #1287
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by TorontoCFE View Post
if you can live off non=poker income then you are likely safe
not declaring poker income.
So its unlikey they will treat it as 2 "part time jobs"? Even when poker was my sole source of income for the past 7 years?
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Old 06-07-2010, 10:29 AM   #1288
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

I'm sure that they would try.

I also think though that if you meet the line that you can live your lifestyle on non-poker income then you have a sufficient case to claim it is a hobby
and thus non-taxable.

Though it is a complicated issue because taxability is an issue of fact,
that is the best rule of thumb I've been able to come up with to make it simple.
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Old 06-07-2010, 12:09 PM   #1289
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by TorontoCFE View Post
I'm sure that they would try.

I also think though that if you meet the line that you can live your lifestyle on non-poker income then you have a sufficient case to claim it is a hobby
and thus non-taxable.

Though it is a complicated issue because taxability is an issue of fact,
that is the best rule of thumb I've been able to come up with to make it simple.
Thanks For the help
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Old 06-14-2010, 09:51 AM   #1290
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

so im really hopeing someone can help would be really nice i have made above and average of 100k a year so far so it seems i should be filing taxes here but i argue that my other gambling winnings/losses should be in the same category im always reminded of the time i went to australia for the millions i ended up running really hot at the baccrat and black jack tables and loseing about 15k in poker buyins i take the same stratgic lines to both useing proper strategy and with baccrat looking to for patterns similar to poker could i not argue in a court of law that these are lumped together and i lost all the money i made trying to "follow the patterns" why can i not inturn put them together as "gambling winnings" how can they judge 1 from the other and this is not taxed on the flip side if the say its all taxed why cant i say well i dont have any of it i lost it all

I APOLOGIZE for no punctuation barely passed highschool lol and also if this is been discussed seems to me i could fight and win in a court of law with this also what would be someones hole in my argument

also does it make any diffrence if i take cheques offline from my poker accounts? seems like this might suck to be me thx for any help anyone can give
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Old 06-14-2010, 03:44 PM   #1291
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Interesting story from Switzerland, the supreme court has ruled poker is a game of luck after a lower court ruled it was a game of skill. Whats interesting is once it was ruled a game of skill it was legal to be played outside of casinos which is the reason the casinos appealed and took it to the supreme court.

Couldn't the same thing apply here? OK Canada you say its a game of skill and I should pay taxes on it like any business, so I should be able to legally open a private poker room right?
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Old 06-14-2010, 03:48 PM   #1292
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by roy_miami View Post
Couldn't the same thing apply here? OK Canada you say its a game of skill and I should pay taxes on it like any business so I should be able to legally open a private poker room right?
No. It would still be illegal.
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Old 06-16-2010, 01:26 PM   #1293
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Hi Guys

So glad that I came upon this thread. Haven't read the whole of it; but i hope i got the gist.

Would you tell me please, if SPORTS BETTING (eg: soccer, baseball) ONLINE (eg: at bodog.ca) is Legal in Ontario, Canada?
Is it taxable in Ontario, Canada?

I do it for recreation (started out 2 months ago). I understand that if I earn too much over a long period (making the "recreational" argument null?), I would be taxed for POKER. But does the same rule apply to Online Sports Betting?

Thanks a lot.
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Old 06-16-2010, 02:47 PM   #1294
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

There is no difference between poker, sportsbetting or any other
activity not normally taxed.
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Old 06-17-2010, 12:56 AM   #1295
BATGAL
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Thanks a lot Toronto CFE.

So since I am just starting out, I shouldn't have any problem depositing a cheque (my first cheque with the bodog name on it) of $2000 at my bank?

I mean, just the fact that it says bodog on it shouldn't mean a thing. Right?

Thanks again.
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Old 06-17-2010, 04:19 AM   #1296
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by BATGAL View Post
Thanks a lot Toronto CFE.

So since I am just starting out, I shouldn't have any problem depositing a cheque (my first cheque with the bodog name on it) of $2000 at my bank?

I mean, just the fact that it says bodog on it shouldn't mean a thing. Right?

Thanks again.
LOL....I guarantee any check you get from Bodog will NOT have the bodog name on it. You don`t actually have a cheque yet do you....you`ll see when it arrives
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Old 06-17-2010, 09:39 AM   #1297
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

oh...haha. Great to know.

(yup..i don't have it yet
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Old 06-17-2010, 12:31 PM   #1298
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Five and a half years and this thread is still going 0_o ... and I'm sure it will keep up for many more years too.

Just wanted to give my thanks to Henry17 and TorontoCFE for all the valuable information they've provided here, this thread is the best reference I know in the murky world of gambling taxation in Canada.
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Old 06-18-2010, 03:06 AM   #1299
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

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oh...haha. Great to know.

(yup..i don't have it yet
Years ago when online poker was in it's formative stage. I used to get Pokerroom cheques and they were always from numbered accounts out of Miami. I don't recall any poker sites or sports books ever really using their name in payouts. By the way 6 figures cheques from numbered accounts in Miami seem more sinister than a Party Poker cheque for similar money.
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Old 06-22-2010, 02:44 PM   #1300
wildatheart3
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

So are there any reported cases to date of the CRA pursuing any profesional poker players who have not declared their income?

I mean if this is the case and its been how many years............ since they could have been going after us all, i understand the unpredictability of it all, but it makes me a little less worried over not declaring income. Obv it holds some risk but any poker player understands the concept of risk/reward. My (admitadadly little) understanding leads me to beleive that it is waaaaaaaaaaaaay worth it not to declare.
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