Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

General Poker Discussion Discussion of other uncategorized topics related to poker.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-23-2009, 02:20 AM   #576
Toblerone
stranger
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 5
Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

This has to do with taxes somewhat but also with online gambling as a whole as I am getting into part ownership of an overseas online poker site.

Does anyone know the name of a lawyer (preferably in Ontario) who is well-versed in this field? Taxes/Ownership/Non-Residence/Legality of owning such a site as a Canadian, etc.

Thanks!
Toblerone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2009, 09:18 PM   #577
Tornado69
old hand
 
Tornado69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,420
Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Just curious does anyone know if bartering is taxable in Canada ?
Tornado69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2009, 09:40 PM   #578
Henry17
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Henry17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: You've got a friend in me
Posts: 27,716
Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado69 View Post
Just curious does anyone know if bartering is taxable in Canada ?
Yes
Henry17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2009, 12:54 AM   #579
Goodfella_84
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 75
Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Does anyone know if any accountants in Toronto that specialize in poker or online gambling? I'm looking to get my stuff in order and would prefer to talk to someone who deals or has dealt with poker players.


thanks
Goodfella_84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2009, 03:23 AM   #580
Rainbow Warrior
flight risk
 
Rainbow Warrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: on a blanket
Posts: 5,815
Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodfella_84 View Post
Does anyone know if any accountants in Toronto that specialize in poker or online gambling? I'm looking to get my stuff in order and would prefer to talk to someone who deals or has dealt with poker players.


thanks
Wish I could help. Good Luck.
Good accountants can pick/choose their clients.

A certain Russ Fox once indicated that gamblers might be considered to be less than optimal clients.
Go figure.
Rainbow Warrior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2009, 01:04 PM   #581
Goodfella_84
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 75
Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Yeah thats what I figured. I guess the hunt is on.
Goodfella_84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2009, 03:36 AM   #582
Tornado69
old hand
 
Tornado69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,420
Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry17 View Post
Yes
that's ****ed ... so we don't own our bodies and what it produces ? Are we slaves ? I guess they would make you pay back favors you did with their monopoly of legal tender money ? Would they want 1000 out of the 4000 apples you might have produced on your farm or property ? I am just starting to realize how much more this system sucks.
Tornado69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2009, 05:09 AM   #583
Rainbow Warrior
flight risk
 
Rainbow Warrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: on a blanket
Posts: 5,815
Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Re: Bartering

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado69 View Post
that's ****ed ... so we don't own our bodies and what it produces ? Are we slaves ? I guess they would make you pay back favors you did with their monopoly of legal tender money ? Would they want 1000 out of the 4000 apples you might have produced on your farm or property ? I am just starting to realize how much more this system sucks.
What are you talking about?
How is this any different than getting paid for work.

Of course barter is taxable.
The abuse would be boggling if it wasn't.
Rainbow Warrior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2009, 10:12 PM   #584
TorontoCFE
grinder
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 544
Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodfella_84 View Post
Does anyone know if any accountants in Toronto that specialize in poker or online gambling? I'm looking to get my stuff in order and would prefer to talk to someone who deals or has dealt with poker players.


thanks
I might be able to help. I`m in the Toronto area but only have time to add a few more potential clients.
TorontoCFE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2009, 06:54 PM   #585
TMcStacks
centurion
 
TMcStacks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 156
Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry17 View Post
I believe I have come up with a way to set it up so that the income wouldn't be taxable but it would require two at arms-length players to work together. I have to do more research on it as it involves some fairly new legislation and I'm not going to get into details only to realize I stupidly overlook something obvious but I'm quite excited.
Henry please enlighten us...
TMcStacks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2009, 07:04 PM   #586
Henry17
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Henry17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: You've got a friend in me
Posts: 27,716
Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Soon. I've actually changed some of what I was thinking back then and now I'm almost certain that this will work. Law school was eight years ago and there was a lot of drinking so I need to meet with a lawyer to confirm that what I'm thinking is correct. I'm too busy to bother till May but I'll return to it.
Henry17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2009, 07:16 PM   #587
4thstreetpete
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
4thstreetpete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 9,270
Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Sounds good Henry, can't wait to hear what you come up with.
4thstreetpete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2009, 05:39 PM   #588
TMcStacks
centurion
 
TMcStacks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 156
Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry17 View Post
Soon. I've actually changed some of what I was thinking back then and now I'm almost certain that this will work. Law school was eight years ago and there was a lot of drinking so I need to meet with a lawyer to confirm that what I'm thinking is correct. I'm too busy to bother till May but I'll return to it.
At least give us a little somethin' somethin' to tide us over for two months
TMcStacks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2009, 05:44 PM   #589
konrad
adept
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: mom's basement
Posts: 1,149
Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Hello all,

my situation is the following: im a 22 year old tax newb from Quebec. Since this summer, I have made about 185k from mtts online. My first significant cash was this august (54k). I get 5k cheques from FTP and stars and deposit them at the teller...sometime 4 at once...wtv. anyways, they set me up with an investment advisor because I have like 30k in a saving account (lol). he told me that i will probably have to pay taxes, like 50% This obviously scares me, and I dont know what to do. Im not sure whether I can argue that I am merely a recreational player (althgough I am a student), or whether that would even be significant for a judge. The fact is, however, that I play just about every day.


My money is invested in Canadian DIvidends and Premium Money Market Funds. Should I declare my money? Will I be in trouble if I dont, and later audited? WHat are the chances of that happening. My mom says I should consult a tax-lawyer (exensive obv), but I thought I would see what advice i could get here first. Thanks for any advice.
konrad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2009, 05:55 PM   #590
Henry17
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Henry17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: You've got a friend in me
Posts: 27,716
Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Need more information on how the $185k was earned. Did you hit a Sunday Million for $185k or do you win smaller MTT on a regular basis?
Henry17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2009, 06:11 PM   #591
konrad
adept
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: mom's basement
Posts: 1,149
Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

here is a rough break down of where the 185k came from:

54k: 9th place in ftops 2500 buy in

2 26k cashes for two-thirds in pstars mtts (200-300 buy in).

maybe about 10 5k-11k cashes for smaller mtts

1 17k cash for final table of 750k guranteed on ftp and a 15k cash for a second in a tourney on the same day in the FUPER.
konrad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2009, 06:12 PM   #592
konrad
adept
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: mom's basement
Posts: 1,149
Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

i do play just about every day (mtts exclusively)....and obv i have lots of losing days too
konrad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2009, 06:26 PM   #593
Henry17
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Henry17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: You've got a friend in me
Posts: 27,716
Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Your situation is really tough. You have only been playing for six months and your profit is heavily concentrated in a few events. That helps the don't have to declare it as income. The amount of play though would be important. The more you play the more likely it is that you'd be seen as a professional player. If this continues next year you'd be consider in the business of gambling but for 2008 it could go either way.

I'd do nothing and see what happens. If you want to be proactive you could get an advanced ruling from CRA. Go to a tax lawyer and have them deal with it.

Being in QC sucks -- your tax liability on $185k is $73,624 which is higher than any other province.
Henry17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2009, 06:38 PM   #594
konrad
adept
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: mom's basement
Posts: 1,149
Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

i appreciate your advice. lets say i simply dont declare for 2008, but later i get auditted and they determine that I should have declared that 185k and payed taxes on it. Will i have to pay more than the orginal 73k? Will i possibly have to go to jail? Sorry for being so ignorant on this subject. I will be sure to post whatever info the tax lawyer gives me.
konrad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2009, 06:56 PM   #595
Henry17
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Henry17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: You've got a friend in me
Posts: 27,716
Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

You would not go to jail.

If they deem you were in the business of gambling then you'd owe tax on your profit. They would estimate that but at the point you should provide them with your records since if left to their own devices they will come in high. Assuming it was based on $185k in profit and you had no other income then you'd owe $73k.

You might also owe interest and penalties depending on if CRA felt you made an honest mistake or if you knew and choose to not pay. If you actively try to hide the income then it gets really bad for penalties. In most cases CRA is happy to just get the money that is owed and doesn't really bother with penalties but I don't keep up on this so not sure.

If I'm not mistaken the penalty for not declaring is 17% the first time and 30% for the second year. If you actively try to hide income it could be 3X the amount owed. I'm not 100% certain about these so don't rely on them. I really don't see CRA trying to get penalties out poker players.
Henry17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2009, 08:51 PM   #596
homeboy604
veteran
 
homeboy604's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: @ Powder Chair/Big White
Posts: 3,360
Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry17 View Post
Soon. I've actually changed some of what I was thinking back then and now I'm almost certain that this will work. Law school was eight years ago and there was a lot of drinking so I need to meet with a lawyer to confirm that what I'm thinking is correct. I'm too busy to bother till May but I'll return to it.
gogogogogoGOGOGOGOOOOOO
homeboy604 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2009, 09:40 PM   #597
TorontoCFE
grinder
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 544
Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry17 View Post
Soon. I've actually changed some of what I was thinking back then and now I'm almost certain that this will work. Law school was eight years ago and there was a lot of drinking so I need to meet with a lawyer to confirm that what I'm thinking is correct. I'm too busy to bother till May but I'll return to it.
I'm working on something too - something you can do without a 3rd party but would only be worth it if you are talking about fairly decent money as there would be significant startup costs.
TorontoCFE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2009, 09:54 PM   #598
Henry17
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Henry17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: You've got a friend in me
Posts: 27,716
Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by TorontoCFE View Post
I'm working on something too - something you can do without a 3rd party but would only be worth it if you are talking about fairly decent money as there would be significant startup costs.
Interesting that would actually be true for what I'm thinking as well. Not sure what the start-up costs would be but something in the $10-15k range and only useful for people making decent money. I don't need the 3rd party that was a mistake.
Henry17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2009, 04:02 AM   #599
TMcStacks
centurion
 
TMcStacks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 156
Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

So you're both thinking of the same thing, and neither of you have found any holes in it yet. I think its safe to relay us the idea.
TMcStacks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2009, 05:18 PM   #600
flexie
newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 19
Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...rce_login=true

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1759692/posts


Gambling duo prove there's no tax on luck[Canada]
Globe and Mail

Brian and Terry Leblanc were once a couple of average guys, spending their days washing windows and their nights drinking beer and watching sports on TV.

In the late 1980s, the brothers won about $90,000 at Toronto's Woodbine race track and decided to put that money toward more sports betting. Within a few years, the Leblancs were managing a full-time betting operation from their home in Aylmer, Que., wagering up to $300,000 a week mostly on games such as Pro-Line.

Their strategy was simple: bet huge amounts on events with incredibly long odds. Naturally, they lost most of the time, but, when they won, they won big. They pocketed $1.7-million three times -- on two bets in 1996 and one in 1999 -- and won about $5.5-million from 1996 to 1999. During that period, they wagered $52-million.

It wasn't long before the Canada Revenue Agency took note. In 2000, the agency sent them a notice of reassessment for the years 1996 to 1999, saying their gambling was a business and subject to tax.

The CRA was convinced the men used a "system" to make bets and noted their operation included a computer program to manage wagers and as many as 15 paid helpers. The brothers denied using any system, saying they relied only on luck. And, they added, gambling winnings were not taxable.

The case ended up at the Tax Court of Canada and, last week, Mr. Justice Donald Bowman ruled in favour of the Leblancs.

"It is true, they won but to say they won because they had a system has no basis in the evidence at all," Judge Bowman said in his ruling.

"They won in spite of having no system. If one is looking for a pattern, it is that they bet massively and recklessly and in those games where they could, they bet on long shots. Certainly it meant that if they won they won big, but the converse is that if they lost, they lost big and, given the astronomical odds against winning, their chances of losing were far greater than their chances of winning."

The judge said the Leblancs were compulsive gamblers, but they were not running a business and their winnings were not taxable.

William Vanveen, an Ottawa lawyer who represented the brothers, said the ruling was an important victory for gamblers everywhere.

"What it boiled down to was that luck is not taxable," Mr. Vanveen said yesterday.

In order to win its case, he said the CRA had to prove that the men developed a system to minimize their risk, something like a pool shark who practises by day and then takes on unsuspecting drunks by night.

"The mistake CRA made was they just looked at the volume [of betting] and said all this volume amounts to a business," Mr. Vanveen said. "These [lotteries] are advertised and are accepted to be tax free. [The brothers] have a big win, they don't work after that, so what's the problem?"

The lawyer representing CRA was unavailable for comment.

As Judge Bowman noted, the Leblancs led unusual lives.

They grew up in the Toronto area and had little more than high-school education when they joined their father's window-washing business in the 1980s. After winning money on the track, they decided to jump into Pro-Line, which was launched in 1992. They lost about $10,000 in their first year, but soon scored big with two $1.7-million wins in January and February of 1996. By the mid-1990s, they moved to Aylmer, near Ottawa, so they could play both Ontario and Quebec lotteries. They kept their lives simple, driving old cars and eschewing flashy jewellery.

"They spent their time playing lottery games or watching sports on television," the judge noted. "They also played Ping Pong and golf and sat around the house drinking beer and eating pizza."

Not everything went well. Around 1996, Terry Leblanc fell in love with a stripper named Josée Dubreuil and showered her with gifts, including an $850 engagement ring, $2,000 for breast implants and $14,000 in cash, according to court records. The relationship ended after Ms. Dubreuil stole $124,000 worth of winning lottery tickets from a jar the Leblancs used to store winning bets (the theft prompted them to buy a safe). Ms. Dubreuil was later convicted and given an 18-month suspended sentence.

In 2000, they also got into a spat with dog-racing regulators in Australia who withheld nearly $200,000 the brothers won via an online bet. The Australians alleged manipulation but eventually backed down and gave the Leblancs their winnings.

Brian, now 35, and Terry, 41, were not available for comment yesterday. According to Mr. Vanveen, Terry still lives in Canada while Brian has moved to Britain.

Both are still gambling, he said. "Not like they were before."
flexie is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive