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The Well: Jman28 (revisisted) The Well: Jman28 (revisisted)

12-26-2007 , 09:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BombayBadboy
Hey Jman,

I'm mainly a 200 and 400 NL player and lately I've been thinking a lot about the concept of turning a "made" hand into a bluff.

Example:

I call a raise OTB with QThh vs. a 24/17/3 solidish player who raised UTG (I figured blinds would come along because they were extremely donkish). It got HU and I called a bet on a Q93r board. Turn was a T, putting out a FD. He led 25 into 39. Is a raise here for value or a bluff? Normal stacks, 200NL. He should see me as a winning TAG, and I believe he does because he doesnt play me HU.
Mmm, against almost everyone this is a value raise. Turning top two pair into a bluff is something that should rarely be done, and would require him folding a hand better than top two pair. Do you expect him to fold a set of 3s if you raise?

Quote:

The above might not be the best example, but maybe you can elaborate on the whole idea of where and where not you should turn a made hand into a bluff? Or do we think too early that we are turning a made hand into a bluff? I think there is a lot of confusion surrounding this idea, especially within SSNL.
If you're against a tight solid opponent, and you realize that your made hand no longer is good enough to merit a call (or it does but a bluffraise has more value) you can choose to turn it into a bluff. The reason it's a good play on certain boards/actions is that good hand readers will put you on a made hand, and realize you can't have air. Then they can make a big fold.

I remember a bluffraise I made deep in a WSOP event. Kristy Gazes opened in the HJ, we were prolly 50bb deep with antes. I call in BB with T7s. Flop Q75r I check-call 2/3 pot. Turn 6. I check, she bets like 1/2 pot. I know she's a solid player, and doesn't have a wide preflop opening range. Basically I think I'm beat by QJ or so almost every time. So I can't call my midpair. Since I figure she's smart and a decent hand reader and doesn't know me from an average tourney player, I raise to about 2.75x her bet, and she thinks and folds.

She has to assume I can't call the flop with air, and that I won't raise with worse than QJ for value. She probably puts me on something like a set or 76/98.

Make sense?
The Well: Jman28 (revisisted) Quote
12-26-2007 , 10:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jman28
Well thought out questions will be met with well thought out responses.
Hi Jman28,

Greatly appreciate the opportunity to ask a question.

In the Well a couple of times you mentioned understanding a player's personality to be crucial, and on more than one occasion you said also that understanding a player's reasoning process is crucial. When I read your first comment (about personality) I felt you could perhaps be suggesting that in the hierarchy of importance this could be number one (in terms of cruciality -lol). Then later I read your comments on the reasoning process of players and I wondered here whether you might not rank this higher than personality, ie. might be the most exploitable aspect of a player.

Freud says the Ego is the reasoning part of the personality, the Reality Principle, negotiating (if you will) between the demands of the Super Ego and the Id. So, if you understand a player's reasoning process you understand their personality.

Do you think this way, or do you have a completely different view of "personality" and "the reasoning process"? And if the latter, which is most crucial to understand in poker?
The Well: Jman28 (revisisted) Quote
12-26-2007 , 10:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jman28
Mmm, against almost everyone this is a value raise. Turning top two pair into a bluff is something that should rarely be done, and would require him folding a hand better than top two pair. Do you expect him to fold a set of 3s if you raise?



If you're against a tight solid opponent, and you realize that your made hand no longer is good enough to merit a call (or it does but a bluffraise has more value) you can choose to turn it into a bluff. The reason it's a good play on certain boards/actions is that good hand readers will put you on a made hand, and realize you can't have air. Then they can make a big fold.

I remember a bluffraise I made deep in a WSOP event. Kristy Gazes opened in the HJ, we were prolly 50bb deep with antes. I call in BB with T7s. Flop Q75r I check-call 2/3 pot. Turn 6. I check, she bets like 1/2 pot. I know she's a solid player, and doesn't have a wide preflop opening range. Basically I think I'm beat by QJ or so almost every time. So I can't call my midpair. Since I figure she's smart and a decent hand reader and doesn't know me from an average tourney player, I raise to about 2.75x her bet, and she thinks and folds.

She has to assume I can't call the flop with air, and that I won't raise with worse than QJ for value. She probably puts me on something like a set or 76/98.

Make sense?
This makes sense. Hands that originally are intended to be shown down without improvement turn into bluffs because based on how the hand plays out, you put your opponent on a hand that is better than yours, yet not good enough that it can stand much heat.

These are pretty rare, especially at SSNL. There aren't many spots where I'd try to get a 100nl player off top pair or better.
The Well: Jman28 (revisisted) Quote
12-26-2007 , 10:29 PM
What is the most extravagant/'Balla' purchase you have made with your poker winnings?
The Well: Jman28 (revisisted) Quote
12-26-2007 , 10:37 PM
Quote:
Why do you think this is a leak? In a grander sense, how do you value the creation of a unique image in heads up matches?
Against someone who knows what they're doing, there are only so many hands you can profitably 3bet imo. Otherwise you're putting too much money in with the weakest hand OOP.

Sure you'll take some down preflop and some more with cbets, but the times you don't take pots down, you'll lose a decent amount of chips. I suspect that most ppl get carried away with 3betting because of the mental reinforcement of winning most of the time when they do it.

Winning the most post does not equal winning the most money.

As far as creating an image, you have to know what you're doing, but it's awesome when you can. I usually like to start by playing hands the way I think is most +EV, and then evaluating what my image is. However, I've definitely gone into a match trying to create a certain image from time to time.

I usually like to do it when I know my opponent has certain leaks. I create an image to help reinforce them. So, if he calls to much, I try my best to make it look to him like I'm bluffing all the time. Then I just valuetown him later. Sometimes I'll make what I know are -ev bluffs in smaller pots for the +EV later. Stuff like that.

Is that what you were asking?

Also, I see a lot of players justifying plays they make, saying that they are trying to create or maintain a maniacal image. The plays they make aren't bad, but the justification is, especially since most of them go on and continue bluffing. They should be making the light 3bets and big bluffs, or whatever they're doing, to max their EV in that hand, and to keep their ranges balanced.

They do the same thing in the opposite direction, trying to maintain a solid image.

For the most part, I think you shouldn't try to create a certain image. You should just be able to realize what your image is and play off of it.
Jman, this is the most valuable, insightful post I have ever read on 2+2. I'm beginning to understand the nature of high stakes thought process and certain things in poker that people do wrong and have difficulty identifying what and why they are doing these things wrong.

As for my question, I'm a mostly 1000nl-2500nl HU player trying to make the jump to true high stakes. Is there anything specific you suggest for me to do or think about as I try to make this jump?

Obviously it's the biggest transition I've taken, beginning at 100nl HU. FWIW I'm making somewhere around 8bb/100 at 1000nl and swongin' all over the place at 10/20 and 10/25.

I'm just looking for any words of wisdom, so I can have a perspective as to what it takes to "make it" at 2500nl+ HU.
The Well: Jman28 (revisisted) Quote
12-26-2007 , 11:12 PM
Thanks again for doing this, especially over the holidays. The answers are probably worthy of their own posts. A couple of more minor clarifications if you have time.

Considering 3 pair should beat a higher 2 pair, should a straight + a pair beat just a straight? Similarly should a 7 card straight flush beat a higher 5 card straight flush? These are the questions that keep me awake at night!

Cheers
The Well: Jman28 (revisisted) Quote
12-26-2007 , 11:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackal69
awesome stuff... Bankroll recommendations for 25/50 plus sh/hu, biggest downswings (in $ and buyins) that you have experienced? thanks
BR reqs are a function of what you're comfortable with. I think most people underestimate variance. Most people don't understand how bad it can get.

Looking back at the way I started, I might not be playing still had I not run good for the beginning of my career.

Most pros probably started out running good. Most 'would be' pros who run bad at the start of their career probably lost interest and/or confidence and many give up.

Since a lot of us ran good to start our career, we have a romantic sense of how poker should go ingrained in our minds, even if we've experienced average luck since.

I think 5% of pros I know think that they've run average or above average lifetime. I would guess that 65% of them have run above expectation.

Anyways that was a tangent, but my answer is I don't really know what a good BR management system is. I don't believe in many rules like that either. I suggest you have more than you think you need. Much more. But if you want to take shots, and think you're willing to deal with the consequences ($$ and emotionally) and step down and grind, I support it.
The Well: Jman28 (revisisted) Quote
12-26-2007 , 11:52 PM
Would you mind giving your thoughts on momentum during a heads up match? Specifically, any adjustments when the other guy seems to be winning the "I-miss you-miss" game?

I feel like it shouldn't be a factor between good players, but in practice it seems to be.
The Well: Jman28 (revisisted) Quote
12-27-2007 , 01:06 AM
Thx for sharing this information with us.

I don't think that this has been brought up yet. Early on you mention that your not much of a stats person. Do you use a HUD when you play? I know it makes less sense for playing HU against players that you know, but I can see it being of value in the 25/50 ring games.
I find that at times a HUD is more confusing than helpful, because it may indicate one thing when in truth villain is playing differently in a given situation than he would on average, due history or table dynamics. I also feel that the tendency to auto-pilot is way higher whe you see numbers infront of you.
To me the most value from HUDs come from the PF stats, but then again I play wider player pools than you.
The Well: Jman28 (revisisted) Quote
12-27-2007 , 01:33 AM
wow we have the exact same personality..thats nuts.


you said that phil ivey is more annoying but sbrugby is tougher HU. does that mean that you think brian has an edge over phil?,,,or do you see any leaks in phil ivey's game?
The Well: Jman28 (revisisted) Quote
12-27-2007 , 01:55 AM
Hey guys, I'll be busier than the last couple days now. I'll get to more questions, but not all of them, and not right away.
The Well: Jman28 (revisisted) Quote
12-27-2007 , 02:14 AM
Will you ever mentor your own protege?

You emphasized how much your friends helped you by just chatting and watching them play, would you ever do someone (or a group of students) out there a favor like that?
The Well: Jman28 (revisisted) Quote
12-27-2007 , 03:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daut44
WHAT ARE BANANA THIEVES AND CAN I BECOME ONE SOMEDAY?
wow... this is very very funny... unfortunately, at your expense.

banana thieving is so much funnier when people dont know what it is.

edit: also, phil this thread is awesome as i would've expected. nice job.

come show off your new chiseled body at the pca you loser.

Last edited by Snoop Todd; 12-27-2007 at 03:41 AM.
The Well: Jman28 (revisisted) Quote
12-27-2007 , 06:04 AM
As 1/2 of my prospective degree is philosophy I feel obligated to ask what branch(es) of philosophy most interested you?

Note: I'm not sure if its been asked, as I'm only about halfway through this fantastic thread. Keep it up!
The Well: Jman28 (revisisted) Quote
12-27-2007 , 07:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by verneer
Amazing thread - thanks for taking the time to answer these questions. Is there any chance of you writing a poker-related book? If so, would it be a strategy one or something else? What would be the biggest roadblock in having this happen?
I've thought about writing a book plenty.

I'd probably write a strategy book if I did. I don't think many people care about my biography or a fictional story I might write.

The main thing standing in the way is how much work it is to write a book. And how much money you can('t) make. If I thought I could make around 60% of my hourly rate writing a book instead of playing, I would do it.
The Well: Jman28 (revisisted) Quote
12-27-2007 , 07:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthijsH
Hey Phil,

Thanks for doing a well. A+ material!

As many others have mentioned, you are probably the best poker author around. In the quote above, you talk about a bunch of 'unreleased' stuff for a project you were working on. I really hope this project is the writing of a book. I would love to read a couple hundred pages of your work put together. If it's not a book then where/when will the other 'unreleased' stuff be made available to the eager public?

Regards,

MatthijsH
Thank you.

I wrote the material for a specific project that may or may not end up working out.

Since it's already written, I likely will release what I have done in some form or another no matter what.
The Well: Jman28 (revisisted) Quote
12-27-2007 , 07:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clayton
Hello Jman,

First off I just want to say thanks very much for doing this well, I remember reading your strat threads back in the day of SNG's and trying to do detective work on what 2p2er is the infamous "OMGClayAiken". Your Bluff articles are great, and you're a great contributor.

My question concerns HU play. I usually try to only play fullstackers that I have a good edge on, and halfstackers that are usually terrible (this goes from 200NL to 1000NL). I notice many fellow posters who engage in long battles with other fullstack players who are decently good and thinking, and this results in a "variance war" of sorts.

You are a player who will play HU with the best of them, and your edge is likely quite small against a large amount of these players (feel free to disagree with this assesment).

What could I learn from playing other good players fullstacked (multitabling) that I have a small edge on? Right now I will just pass on these opportunities to do "real life" things and wait for better spots.
A small edge at 200/400nl is still a pretty decent winrate.

I don't think you need to play against good players to improve your game, though it is a nice challenge and might motivate you.

I think you're probably doing it the right way though. Real life things are good.
The Well: Jman28 (revisisted) Quote
12-27-2007 , 07:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverFenix
Much appreciated for this well so far.

You mentioned you made up some HU games w/ Durrrr. In general how comfortable do you feel playing a new game against really talented (or awful) opposition. Say if a good high limit razz, 7 stud, etc game was running would you have no problems hoping in despite that game not being your forte?
I basically have zero limit experience. If I limit game opened up, I think it would have to be full of megefish before I jumped in.

If a new pot limit game was invented tomorrow, I would probably play in any 6 handed game.

Quote:
OT:
How much do you think your PT database is worth?
Last place you visited?
Place you want to visit most?
My db is broken up into like 4 dbs across 3 computers, and I'm missing half the hands. I would guess it'd be worth 10k to certain people, but it would be worth more than that to me for them to not have it.

I visited my family in MD in September. Does that count? Otherwise, family in NC. Otherwise Vegas sometime.

I don't really like to travel. If I could teleport to anywhere in the world right now, I would stay right here in Madison, WI. Though maybe I would teleport 3hrs into the future and to Jamba Juice.
The Well: Jman28 (revisisted) Quote
12-27-2007 , 07:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AceCR9
if you were to recommend Tommy's program to someone, at what stage in their poker development(to simplify i guess use $ limit they play/win @) would you suggest they get his coaching so that they maximize its potential?
He's not right for everyone. As with any expensive coach, I'd recommend that you have a decent sized roll, and that you were serious about playing poker semi-long term. That way it will definitely payoff.

When I signed up, he did a consult over the phone to see if it was a fit for me. I assume he still does that.
The Well: Jman28 (revisisted) Quote
12-27-2007 , 07:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjohnsonr10
Obviously one must be somewhat intelligent to be successful at poker, but to what extent is this statement true? How important would you say intelligence is overall in poker? How intelligent do you think you are relative to some of the other top pros. There are obviously different types of intelligence, perhaps you can discuss how this factors in as well (?).

Thanks.
Intelligence is mandatory at high stakes. You can be fairly unintelligent and develop a 'system' of sorts to beat even midstakes games.

Everyone defines intelligence differently. I think in the areas of intelligence that translate best to poker ability, I'm in the top handful of players.

I touched on it earlier, but I think the important areas are logic, probability, and psychology.
The Well: Jman28 (revisisted) Quote
12-27-2007 , 07:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KRANTZ
shhhhhh

improv analogy is well put. if you're not writing a book, you should start.
Wanna hire me as an improv coach?

I just realized you guys might find this funny. I teach a class for the improv company I'm in. Students pay $100 for a semester of classes from me, which ends up being about 30 hours. 7 people in my class this semester.

So I cost $23.33/hr as an improv coach.
The Well: Jman28 (revisisted) Quote
12-27-2007 , 07:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by plzbenice
how and where did u learn about game theory, u knew about it before u started with poker?
u think HU NL-holdem with 100bb+ stacks is a solvable game?
I never studies game theory formally. I just kind've picked it up from poker books and talking about poker.

Solvable? I don't think so. I mean, well maybe. I think there's a chance they could possibly create a computer that would be a favorite HU v anyone. I'm not sure though.

Realistically though, no, I don't think it's solvable. I have no fear that a bunch of 100bb bots are gonna ruin the games, or that some author will figure it all out, release a book, and then everyone will know how to play perfectly.

Quote:

do u have ageneral idea, tip or concept that u could give as a tip to someone when they think about balancig their range? i mean if i want to balance in a specific ssituation, si there any special concept i could use a s a guideline to find the solution?
I mean... no. I can't think of 1 tip. It's too complex a question. Read my Gbucks article.
The Well: Jman28 (revisisted) Quote
12-27-2007 , 07:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rohanzsta
what is your 3-bet range HU? i think a lot of people RR too wide but I'm not sure.
Vs. an unknown (assuming a decent player) at 25/50nl, prolly something like:

99+, AJo+, ATs, KQ, KTs+, 54s+ (75% of the time), 75s-QTs (50% of the time)

It's player dependent as well as flow of match dependent. So this changes a lot based on who I'm playing and our history, especially recent history.
The Well: Jman28 (revisisted) Quote
12-27-2007 , 08:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaBalla
Hey Jman, thanks a bunch for doing this.

I've always had a lot of respect for you, as you are clearly a very humble and classy guy.

Just a few questions, if you have the time. In your opinion:

1) Who are the top 5 HU NLHE players online?
2) Who are the top 5 6max NLHE players online?
3) Who are the top 5 6max PLO players online?

Also, I've seen ActionJeff comment that Lars is not as good a player as most people think he is (I think his comment was along the lines of "I'm surprised more nosebleed players don't play him HU"), but you seem to suggest the contrary. How high would you rank Lars in NLHE?

Thanks and happy holidays!
I'm sorry to say this but:

1-2) I don't want to say
3) I'm not qualified to say.

I think Lars is very good. One of the best. He has leaks, but he is clearly very very smart.
The Well: Jman28 (revisisted) Quote
12-27-2007 , 08:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by plzbenice
"Against some, you're 3betting just because they fold a lot and you'd rather take down the pot or find out you're behind than play a hand OOP (Also these hands strengthen your 3betting range so it isn't just junk and monsters)."

sounds very familiar to raising for info? do u ever think that is justified?
i mean with very deep stacks and against an opponent who you will know exactly how he reacts maybe but otherways seems spewy and bad and u wont get more info anyway?
Yes, this is essentially raising for info. I don't recommend raising for info against smart tricky players, but against a straightforward player, it's totally fine.

I don't understand the last part of your question. What exactly do you mean?
The Well: Jman28 (revisisted) Quote

      
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