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Old 09-26-2017, 12:11 AM   #1
kosto129
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Shove or Check this river?

Interesting hand I played in my last 5-5 NL Live session.

Fish: $1800
Old/bad player: $520
Hero: $1400

Fish and oldbad player had been limping a lot of hands from early position. 4 limps to me and I look down at black 99 in the BB. I raise to 40 - Fish and Old/bad call.

Flop Ad 6c 7d

I lead flop for $90. Fish folds Oldbad calls. Could check give up here but since these guys are limp calling so wide thought a cbet was the move.

Turn is 9h.

Gin. I decide to bet a bit smaller than usual against this opponent, and fire $160 on the turn, leaving him with roughly $230 behind if he calls. My intention is to jam any non diamond river and make it quite hard for him to fold any ace.

He thinks for a few seconds then calls.

River is a 4d.

With stack sizes, what do we do here? Ship the $230 in there and try to get value from Ace or 2p hands? Or check hoping for a showdown?

Are we ever check folding to river shoves here?
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Old 09-26-2017, 01:00 AM   #2
lil feller
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Re: Shove or Check this river?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kosto129 View Post
Interesting hand I played in my last 5-5 NL Live session.

Fish: $1800
Old/bad player: $520
Hero: $1400

Fish and oldbad player had been limping a lot of hands from early position. 4 limps to me and I look down at black 99 in the BB. I raise to 40 - Fish and Old/bad call.

Flop Ad 6c 7d

I lead flop for $90. Fish folds Oldbad calls. Could check give up here but since these guys are limp calling so wide thought a cbet was the move.

Turn is 9h.

Gin. I decide to bet a bit smaller than usual against this opponent, and fire $160 on the turn, leaving him with roughly $230 behind if he calls. My intention is to jam any non diamond river and make it quite hard for him to fold any ace.

He thinks for a few seconds then calls.

River is a 4d.

With stack sizes, what do we do here? Ship the $230 in there and try to get value from Ace or 2p hands? Or check hoping for a showdown?

Are we ever check folding to river shoves here?
His hesitation would lead me to believe that he doesn't have a flush draw. That combined with the fact that he's bad, and his calling range here is extremely wide, I like a shove.

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Old 09-27-2017, 05:24 AM   #3
AltoZZ
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Re: Shove or Check this river?

I'd bet this.

V most likely range is Ax due to his hesitate call OTT + he might pay u off with low naked Ax (=calling range is super wide)
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Old 09-27-2017, 07:29 AM   #4
jfjeldberg
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Re: Shove or Check this river?

Agree with the others here. Can really only give him 11+/- flush combos (KQ, KJ, KT, K9, QJ, QT, Q9, JT, J9, T9, 98). Any ATo+ and A2s+ is a tough spot here, which is a **** ton of combos. I think that older players tend to percieve younger as more bluff-happy, which may make an argument for a call with any suited ace.

Jam this
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Old 09-27-2017, 03:09 PM   #5
adamzerner
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Re: Shove or Check this river?

I think there's definitely value to be had from a wide range of hands: aces, two pair, lower trips, maybe even a hand like 87 if Villain is a huge calling station and you have an aggressive image (probably not though).

And if Villain does have a flush, you don't have to worry about any reverse implied odds.

If you check and Villain shoves, that's actually interesting. You labeled Villain as bad and old. My impression is that bad old players don't usually bluff rivers, especially against aggression like this. You could easily have an ace that you're not folding. With all of that said, I don't think Villain would shove as a bluff.

So would Villain shove with a worse made hand? Maybe. If you check maybe Villain takes you off flushes, and perhaps tries to get value from a good ace, or two pair, or trips. I think this spot would really depend on your read of the Villain. I think a lot of old + bads would just want to check behind, but some of the more thinking and greedy types might want to look for value. I think it'd be a tough spot. Without any reads, I'd probably call due to the pot odds, but I could see folding being the right play against certain opponents.

Last edited by adamzerner; 09-27-2017 at 03:15 PM.
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Old 09-28-2017, 10:56 PM   #6
BenR
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Re: Shove or Check this river?

Giving the fact that he is old and bad and that he limp call pre flop a 8x raise, i would think that he has way more combo of Ax versus combo of flush draw. I like to think that he would fold hand like 75ss pre flop. Point is he is folding some flush draw hand pre flop

So yeah bet river but maybe smaller then his all in to make sure he call you with only one pair of A.

There is roundly 590 in the pot on the river if you bet 230 he get's 3,55-1 odds on his call. He needs to be good 22% of the time to make the call break even. He doesn't think about that but what if you only bet 105. Will he ever fold a pair of A for 105? probably never. It's all player dependant. You have to find which amount to bet that he will not fold.
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Old 10-03-2017, 03:02 AM   #7
TheGodson
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Re: Shove or Check this river?

Shove all-in on this river. Old/bad is more likely a calling station than a bluff monkey.
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Old 10-06-2017, 11:20 PM   #8
CoranMoran
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Re: Shove or Check this river?

You have no read that Villain likes to bluff.
So checking for value is not in our thoughts.

In this scenario, I only check if I am willing to use the information gained to fold.
If I am calling any bet anyways, then there is simply no benefit to the check.
I would still lose every time I am behind, and win nothing when I am ahead.

If this logic is true, then I am always betting the river.

--CM
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Old 10-07-2017, 09:01 AM   #9
6bet me
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Re: Shove or Check this river?

Definitely jam river. Don't be too scared of the flush. Villain is more likely to have Ax or 2pr than a flush. And if you do check, you're probably going to end up sigh calling a river jam anyway, so you might as well be the one to jam yourself, knowing that his calling range is far wider than his betting range.
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Old 10-07-2017, 05:46 PM   #10
AAnarKKi
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Re: Shove or Check this river?

But if the villain only bets flushes and always calls with the Ax? I think the best aproach is always jam, right?
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Old 10-07-2017, 06:11 PM   #11
AAnarKKi
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Re: Shove or Check this river?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenR View Post
he get's 3,55-1 odds on his call. He needs to be good 22% of the time to make the call break even.
How you get this %? Sorry, I'm really bad in this numbers
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Old 10-08-2017, 05:01 AM   #12
TheGodson
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Diamond Re: Shove or Check this river?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AAnarKKi View Post
How you get this %? Sorry, I'm really bad in this numbers
There is $625 in the pot at the river (or $620 if SB was the limper, I'm assuming $625 though). On the river if you bet $230 the total pot will be 230 + 625 = $855. To calculate his pot odds for him to call, we follow this formula:

CallAmount / (CallAmount + PotSize)

So we have:

230 / (230 + 855) = 21.20%
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Old 10-11-2017, 01:20 AM   #13
julien.roy
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Re: Shove or Check this river?

Shove and hear the following speach: “So lucky you got there, if you have the flush you are good.” Then V calls, and is stumped you were good since turn. How could you be so stupid to bet a pair of 9s into his ace.


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Old 10-11-2017, 07:45 AM   #14
Hrmmmm
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Re: Shove or Check this river?

Asking the question about check folding is a bit ridiculous. I would hope that you check fold in this situation at times, because you are going to be up against players that have it and it is best that you know it on occasion. No two hands are truly the same.
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Old 10-19-2017, 10:15 AM   #15
sambraun
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Re: Shove or Check this river?

def bet river since hes a weak player more likely he holds an ace and is not bluffing since he hesitated hes probably not gonna have the fd
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Old 10-19-2017, 04:05 PM   #16
superhypervegan
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Re: Shove or Check this river?

I think half pot on the flop is best, 90 is too big. we are betting 90 to get value from smaller pairs and make hands like QT,KJ ect. fold. On the turn i think a big bet is best 80-150% pot bet. I thinks a set is a good hand to overbet brick turns with and balance with a few draws. As played on the river its a shove.
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Old 10-19-2017, 09:39 PM   #17
sapnu puas
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Re: Shove or Check this river?

I head your argument for turn bet sizing but I like betting bigger to price out draws/easier to commit on river, and not sweat reverse implied odds. (Which by the way one poster said youre not giving but you kinda are esp if he has combo draws. (fl+gutshot/open ended str8 draws,ace rag two pairs) (( another ace landing river makes bigger boat))
Theres a lot of hands youre allowing him to catch up on by milking him & are only going to blame yourself when he hits, & what better of a hand to feel better about on this turn betting big/committing with then with a set

All this of course considering you don't have more info on opp.

Just fake a spazz out & bet big or even shove turn if youre not going to have more confidence opps hand range/what to do on river imo
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Old 10-25-2017, 07:46 PM   #18
Purasevic
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Re: Shove or Check this river?

I agree that flop cbet size is to big. Don't think there's better move than jamming river against this specific opponent.
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Old 11-11-2017, 12:41 PM   #19
Keatz_
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Re: Shove or Check this river?

Preflop:

I dont mind just checking and seeing a flop. If you raise 99 here you are just going to be building a big pot OOP and having to navigate difficult post flop situations. I could easily be wrong about that though.

As played: prob just check call. If you want to bet for equity denial i understand, but $90 is to much. 1/3rd pot is fine.

Turn: Pot it

River:

bet small to get value for Ax or just check and never fold to any bet in the world
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