We are playing a 6 handed 2/5 at local casino everyone at table is relatively deep. I'm not a part of this hand but I'll just take the perspective of Hero.

blinds 2/5.

CO (2.5k) opens to $25
Hero on BTN (2k) 3bets to $100 with AKhh
SB and BB fold.
CO 4bets to $300.
Hero flats.
Heads up to flop ($607 in pot)

Flop comes 4h5h5d

CO bets $300.
Hero shoves $1700
CO calls.
Turn 6c river 8d
CO wins with KK.

We had a difference of opinion after the hand was over. I'll leave out my thoughts, just curious on what you guys think of Hero's line. It's worth noting the CO is a solid thinking player and has been known to 4bet light. Sorry if my hand description isn't according to proper format.

if we believe this guy is 4b light then why are we shoving flop? we block all of his high equity bluffs (Ah Xh) and by jamming we get called by all better (JJ+ not folding otf) and fold all worse (AKo and lower).

I’m an agreement with apricotjello in that I don’t see how we’re ever getting called by worse on the flop after jamming $1,700 into $907 and any we block almost all high-value semi-bluff type hands especially in a 4-Bet pot.

What makes you think this player 4-Bets light? You said he’s a good solid thinking player so when he does 4-Bet light are we talking A3, A4, A5 suited type of hand? How many other hands can a good solid thinking player use to 4-Bet light??

Based on what you said it sounds like he’s shown a light 4-Bet several times? I’d like to hear your response before I go any deeper.

Yes, he's been known to have some A2-A5suited type hands in his 4bet range, though I think he is still leaning value heavy here. My thought on the hand is to 5bet pre small all suited AK and to flat the off suit combos. If he jams pre fold. However if you make it to the point of the flop, I know you're never getting called by worse, but the worst you can get it in is like 44% and the pot already has $900 in it, so I think it's tough to lay it down, and seems like flatting not gonna allow you to realize equity when the turn bricks and he fires. He will likely give up on his bluffs once hero calls the flop, but it just seems like more often then not, you're gonna be in a bad spot on the turn when he continues firing.

your “worst case scenario” isn’t 44%. you will GII vs all combos of AA (33%ish) and A5s (28%) as well.

furthermore at 400bb+ deep we will get owned in the long run piling money into pots when behind. we had $2k to start the hand at a $2/$5 and we still have like $1400+ if we call flop, no reason to create huge shove ranges this early especially since we’re in position.

AKhh is 44% to KK on this board. I guess there are 3 combos of A5 but I dont think he's 4beting them always so it's a very small consideration. Yeah ur 33% to AA I agree. I'm just trying to play devil's advocate but yea I didn't add AA mistakenly. Is it not better to 5bet AKhh pre this deep though?

Heros line is perfectly fine. Yawn.

Easy flop call. Flop jam is quite bad. It's strictly worse than call, by I'd estimate 5-20bb.

Call flop -

Probably fold turn on that card - we shouldn't have too many 66 or 78 or 5x and we are all TT+ if he's lag and AK. Maybe A5s but that is only 2 combos since the hearts and diamonds are gone.

What if hero calls flop, villain checks turn them hero ships? Doesn’t that add hand alike 5-6s, 4-5s, 5-7s to his range and possible get a fold?

I don't know if I like the jam. Why not flat and see another card and have $1400 to play with? Whats the villain betting with? In a pot where I had position and was the raiser I may make this play but to a 4 bet turn bet, I smooth it. If I miss I most likely concede.

I used to jam more often on semi bluffs until I realized I am better off taking another card for maybe 20-35% of my stack and leaving myself with a decision based on the final card.

I am assuming hero started with $1000 and would have been still up $400 if he flatted?

Pre is fine

Flop jam is spew

Shouldn't have a raising range IP on this flop in a 4b pot.

Wow, surprised by the comments. Flop shove seems mandatory to me. This isn't necessarily about bluffing your opponent off a better hand as it is about realizing your equity.

If you just call and turn is a blank you may get bluffed off by 76s, 87s, AQ, or some other bluff hand (not likely, but still). It also, allows you to escape from AA and KK, but you weren't that far behind them to begin with had you shipped. Further more your opponent may shut down if a flush card comes allowing them to escape from a worse hand. Say you call flop and turn card comes a king. You still wont be beating AA or KK, but now you lose action from QQ and maybe JJ. If the turn card is an Ace same story.

If turn card is a K or A you now have to get it in with even worse equity against AA and KK. True, AK is now calling it off instead of folding, but he has the odds to do so and isn't making a mistake. You actually don't want AK to get the chance of catching up.

Bottom line, you want to realize your equity now while it is good.

We call all-in on any turn though

Good point.

The more I think about this the more I'm starting to lean toward a call now. I want to think about it a bit more so to make sure it is the right play and that I'm not just being influenced by the crowd.

Another thing to notice is that if opponent's range is KK+ then we have only 18%ish equity on the turn. However if he has a looser range, then a lot of hands that are weaker than ours could bluff all-in and we'd call instead. On rare occasions if opponent has a weaker flush draw combo, it isn't going to be checking the turn, but could possibly fold to the all-in push on the flop.

Maybe, calling on flop with intention of GII on turn > shoving flop > calling flop and folding turn when missing.

If we call this flop we have to get it in on the turn either by calling all-in or shoving all-in.

Call flop and keep bluffs in villains' range. If villain overbet jams a blank turn, we're in a gross spot, but I think we can call most turns.

This

Yeah I also like this.

Honestly I don't have any issues with how you played it. Flop is a little spewy but I think you have to mix in some shoves like that or your range is easily narrowed if you're playing with regs.