I seem to recall hearing Eugene Todd on Pokerroad Radio, or some other incarnation of that show, talking about how he was banned from Foxwoods for smoking a joint outside during a tournament. I believe he said he contacted a lawyer friend of his who either called or wrote a letter threatening legal action. He explained that poker was Eugene's livelihood and there was no real case for his ban. I believe he was reinstated immediately.

Possibly worth looking into. Good luck.

just the fact that i'm probably going to fw in the next few days and playing 5/10+ just bugs the **** out of me knowing guys like these could be at my table and how bad of a decision fw staff can make on stuff like this. i've been probably 5 times in the past couple months when i've been home from school and really just never had any negative experiences with other players or the floor. situation absolutely sucks i just hope you will get unbanned soon. question was asked before but yea thats really messed up if they banned you but not villain in the hand considering their reason.

Why wasn't the other player perma-banned as well. You obv shouldn't have been banned for this, but I don't see why he didn't get banned. With their logic, I can't see why they couldn't find a reason to ban Frankie either since he openly discussed his part in the matter as well.

This is very f'ed up man, I hope Foxwoods reinstates you.

I think this thread will eventually convince me to never do business while playing live ever again.

back when i was first starting off in poker and playing in FW every day, i was always astonished by how awful the floor was: every ruling would be decided 3 different ways by 3 different floorpeople and always the worst possible ruling ended up being the one that stood. i guess not much has changed, they've always been incompetent idiots.

sorry to hear this story, it really is amazing that something like this could happen. this is basically a combination of entrapment and completely disproportionate punishment (not that the entrapment's going to be a winning argument since this isn't the police, it's a private enterprise). so ****ed up.

scuse my live play naivety, what does this mean ? Connections ?

I have seen some of the worst rulings by those idiots. It's so frustrating KNOWING that you are getting screwed because you know the rules of poker better than the guy who's job it is to know the rules of poker.

Hek,

Mohegan's poker room is up and running. Prolly don't have consistently big enough games for you? Just a thought.

yea, i've heard they haven't been getting 5-10 going that consistently, though that was a couple months ago. sorry to hear about this HEK, i never knew frankie was that scummy

what possible reason could foxwoods have for not allowing equity chops or running it twice? keeps people in the games longer and keeps the rake flowing, makes no sense from a business standpoint does it?

yea...you must have never played at foxwoods. the poker room doesn't really do things that "make sense" from a business standpoint

God what a terrible decision on their part. I have to assume its got something to do with this scumbag Frankie Flowers though. I can't imagine any reasonable organization banning a loyal customer over something so trivial without some other forces at work.

Hope it all works out well for you!



FWIW I would definitely do business with many dudes who I know in my regular live game (not that it happens often at all), but I'll be a lot more hesitant it with unknowns after reading this.

i've played a ton of live poker in my life (i started my career at foxwoods LHE), and i can't understand for the life of me two things in your course of action (I also have an semi-related third question):

1) why you would think that "doing it on the side" meant exchanging chips right then and there (ie passing them across the table). i don't think any casino would ever allow this. you should have checked first with the guy to see if he had cash.

2) why for god's sake you would go over to frankie flowers or w/e his name is and tell him he owes you nothing? what did you hope to accomplish by doing this? unburden his soul? do you think he gave a damn or felt he owed you in any way? please explain that part of your thought process.

3) what was the exact nature of the cheating that you found ff engaged in? (this is actually potentially very interesting for people who play live lest we observe similar behavior).


Horrible ruling, obv. (you'll be hard-pressed to find anyone who agrees with foxwood's ruling).

Also, why do you no longer play online? Pretty interesting transition, I know a few people who have done this.

dlpnyc21

didnt read op but no big deal, i was banned from foxwoods for life 4 years ago and have been there roughly 50 times since then. they definitely dont check the "banlist"

Wow after reading OP sorry man, didnt realize you got 95% of your income from there....

Not suprising at all to hear frankie is involved, doesnt strike me as the least bit honorable character...he has angle shot me before hard too

You should definitely try to get reinstated, I never have, but yeah when I was banned, they took my picture and everything, and made me sign the documents stating I would never return to the property..... but I've been back dozens of times and been carded, they just look at the ID and go "ok"...but obv it would be tougher for you if you saw regs in the game who knew u and knew u got banned, they may rat you out.

I believe the motivation behind the banning is to cover the floor supervisor.

I imagine the situation is much like charging a customer for trespassing only after the customer accuses the store manager of some unlawful behavior.


I'm not sure how it is handled at Foxwoods, but where I play it is drilled into us that "The Floor's Decision is Always Final."

Although it is not the responsibility of a casino to carry out the terms of a verbal contract between players, I believe that the Floor's intervention and word on this matter concerning your "knowingly [breaking] one of foxwoods rules", where you were consulted by and given instruction on how to do this chop, here or away from the table, is an active interpretation of the house rules by Foxwoods itself.

Simply put, you asked for advice on a house rule by a member of staff and was given it. In my opinion, once you asked and was given advice from a representative of Foxwoods who had authority to do so, you no longer broke the rule. From that interpretation.

But this is all from a player's perspective.



I am not sure what you signed, but I will assume by doing so, you were then stripped of all rights and recourse. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine you signed an admittance of all wrongdoing and have already willinginly accepted the management's decision to be banned from the Foxwoods establishment.

So with that mind, I believe that when you compose this letter of appeal for reinstatement, that you not come from a "who is lawfully right" standpoint. If what you signed is what I think you signed, then you are already "lawfully" in the wrong.

If you can, speak on your familial obligations, how you are a loyal customer for so many years, how dealers think highly of you, how you've never had a problem with floor during the time you've played there, how players think of your ethical standing, along with any other community ties to Foxwoods.

Write a letter that is humble, where you were a person chanced into an awful circumstance.

Ask them, in these hard economic times, if Foxwoods could prevent a family man from losing his job, would they be so good as to do so?

Just remember that management's motivation is to have the least amount of disruption and headache. And to sweep any elements like this with a wide hand.

Good luck HEK,

Wish you the best.


Nico D

Also, its almost a guaran-damn-tee. (And I mean im like 99% certain on this after thinking it over) that Frankie doesn't stake the Villian at all, in actuality Villian stakes Frankie, or neither stake the other. Think about it, it doesnt add up. Frankie playing 5/10 while STAKING someone to play 10/20? And what Frankie said to you when you approached him makes perfect sense too, Frankie had nothing to do with the situation and knew he wasn't at risk at all, thats why he could say anything to you without risking anything. He was just covering for the other guy, is my bet.

Poker room staff base all their decisions in favor of the person they feel is most likely to wait outside and cut their throat with a broken beer bottle

This.

Trusting complete strangers with thousands of dollars when the casino explicitly tells you that they will not back you up boggles my mind.


Also,

You may not know much about the business side of things, but your behaviour (that you described) is really shady from the perspective of the casino. You are handing money back and forth across the table, you are making backroomdeals and you involve yourself in shouting matches in the middle of the casino.

How do you think this comes across to the other customers in the casino? If I were that casino, I'd act against people acting like that too.

Obviously, the way they handled you is inconsistent, bad, stupid, etc. But you (or I) have no control over that.


To continue,
There is a way of dealing with immoral/irrational people. The wrong way is to start shouting matches with them. As dlpnyc21 said: there is nothing you can gain by that and much to lose. The right way to deal with them is A. by ignoring them. They cannot help your life so get them out. If you ignore them, hopefully they will ignore you. Or if they pose some kind of threat to you or general society: B. Work through the authority, which in this case is the casino. If he did indeed cheat, etc (of which we don't know the details), then you should take it up with the casino, who actually have the power to do something about it. You, on the other hand, have no power over it, because someone who cheats doesn't care about other people and right or wrong.

how was the villian not banned as well. and how did Frankie not get banned when he was found to be cheating previously?

The lesson here is to regularly tip the floormen and don't make the people in charge dislike you.

This is like firing an employee you hate for showing up to work late. The reason they stated was just the excuse they gave you...they barred you for other reasons.

I would lay long odds that Frankie Flowers (whoever he is) tips the flooremen more every month than you do.

this is f'ed up.

i feel the tilt even reading this.

HEK is the man and very mature (much older than most of us here). For something like this to happen to him seems extremely sketchy and now that I actually know the story, it's even more unjust. I hope you get this resolved. This is a ridiculous decision by Foxwoods and I don't plan on going there ever really, and this just reinforces that.

To OP, is there a reason you don't play online any more? Couldn't you just 6-table 2/4 for more money than you make at Foxwoods?

never even considered tipping the floor when i've been at fw nor have i ever seen anyone do so. is this standard if you're a regular? i mean like when do you do it just randomly walk up to them after a session / after they have made a "good" ruling? i've never seen the floor screw anything up but the most i've ever seen the floor do is change the tv channel for me or tell me that it's just "hot because of the kitchen" and that they can't turn the heat down.