hi guys,

I have 66 from bb with 2500 effective at 5-10 nl live

UTG+1 opens to 30, CO and BUT calls, and I call from bb

POT: 125
FLOP: Q33 with 3 (rainbow)

Checks around

POT: 125
Turn: 2

I lead for 40, UTG+1 calls, others fold

POT: 205
RIVER: 6

I bet 50, UTG+1 raises to 210, I 3 bet to 740, UTG+1 4 bets to 2200

What do I do? this bust be close to top of my range.
I also bet small for 50 since i figured he would raise with a flush /other small boats and to get some value from smaller hands like weak Q or even pocket pairs smaller than Q

What do you think?

Turn action seems wrong to me. I would think this is a check the vast majority of the time multiway on a turn card that couldn't have really improved your range by that much.

River lead sizing is also debateable imho.

To call or not completely based on villain and if he can possibly be doing this with any hands that you beat (bluff or perceived value raise by villain).

River 4 bets seem like pretty rare occurences for someone to try to make you fold what should look like at least a backdoor flush with some sort of bluff.

Pretty sick. Any reads on UTG+1?

What are you trying to accomplish with the turn bet 4-way? Is there a particular reason for it with this sizing as an exploit in this hand? I can think a couple of reasons and situations why this bet is ok (and a dozen why it isn't).

I feel like you're probably betting a bit too wide here (4-way!) if you're betting 66 which leads you to a very awkward river situations.

sick hand, I probably check but have less problem with the turn bet than other posters.

As played, we have 54s/33/22/66 for value. 54/33 each one combo, we can fold all 22, but call 66?

Seems beyond sick but I think it's a clear fold as played - you are repping a full-house and he is still shipping it and you can't beat his value-range here.

Very likely he has QQ or 33 and was trapping; I mean conceptually how can anyone 4 bet-ship all-in on that river without a full-house?

He never has Q3 and I don't think someone would come over the top of your river 3-bet with 22. That limits his range to QQ/33 slow-played on flop or 4-5 hearts that got a cheap look at a gut-shot SFD and got there.

Madness. If VIllain is a TAG I'd just call the 210 raise to be honest. Can't win against his 4bet all in.

You avoid 3 betting because you can't win if he 4-bets? That's madness, all right.

what? lol


im calling here ALWAYS. You only loose against QQ come on, he could do this with Aq ( if he is a fish), with any flush, w/e im calling always. If he had it good for him, but i think you are loosing a lot of money folding against his 4bet. in the LR

Risking 1460 to win 4405 only need to win 33.14% of the time to break even. Don't think you can fold. Really depends if you think he can have 22 there
1 54h
1 33
3 QQ
3 22
If his range is this alone you should call cause you win 37.5%

Unless I missed the description of villain being some sort of soul-crushing killer...

I feel like you all are narrowing his range down crazy far. He 4!'s a heart river and must only quads, the nut boat, or the sf? Seems way too mubsy. After the flop check, he has exactly the correct odds to call the turn for a fd. Is he opening 33 from UTG+1? If he is, as evident by the assumption that he could have quads... Seems like he as a ton of other combos like AhQh and about 5 other suited A's that slammed the river.

I can honestly say that there most likely will never be a time that I find a hero fold for a natural boat. (I could conceivably fold 22 on a KKK flop). Getting setted or out-boated will happen so infrequently that folding will be -ev.

If Hero held QQ, are we still trying to find a fold because obvious quads/sf got there?

We lose to 5 combos that are all fairly reasonable (QQ 3, 33 1, 5h4h 1)


So you need him to have around 2-3 combos of worse to call


No one bluff 4bets river ever.. I mean I don't like to say never but it's incredibly rare.


For worse value we are looking at possibly Q3s, 63s and 22. Most of these don't open early, most don't 4bet river.


Looks like an "easy" fold.

I don't like folding here. There's playing tight and then there's being overly creative. Most of the time, he doesn't have you beat, but obviously, if you're very familiar with the person you're playing against, there might be other factors to consider.

I actually think we should be beat most of the time here - V cant value shove worse and his bluffs are so hard to find. Maybe a flush hand with 5h or 4h (A4/A5hh? 75hh? K5hh?) or something makes sense here as a bluff. I don’t think anyone rly turns flushes into bluffs irl; maybe he’s going psycho with a Qx bluff?

I still lean toward call without any other info on V - people go crazy sometimes - but I expect QQ to be the hand we run into most often at showdown.

I'm expecting to see a flush here most of the time. Then again, I should perhaps point out the fact that I'm predominantly an online player, and the live game in question might have a dynamic entirely different to the one that I'm used to.

P.S. I'd love to hear from anyone who totally disagrees with me. Am I wrong in this situation?

I don't like folding here, either, but what in the world does UTG+1 do this with except for QQ? Maybe the nut flush, but that seems a bit crazy on a paired board. He (I assume) raised from EP, so those are the only hands that really make sense for your average 5/10 player.

Would really help to have some read here. Is V a crazy whale just splashing around, a headphone-wearing reg, a rec player taking a shot?

Your river 3bet range is probably just
Doubt your making such a big 3bet with deuces.

1 combo 33
1 combo 45hh
3 combo 66

Unless you have actually planned out your river 3bet range in a 4 way multiway pot bet, I highly doubt you have any actual bluffs in your range. So what we are dealing with is a range with no bluffs. Folding half your range to a river jam is essentially just folding most of your 66 even from a theory perspective.

Even if villain is exactly balanced, We aren't really exactly getting run over as much as it would "feel" like.

Need a read on villain. Could he take this line with a flush?

I find it hard to fold in this spot though. Look at your line. The turn could easily be construed by villain as hero attempting to steal the pot with a delayed c-bet after the flop checks, and given the small sizing, and that villain got the appropriate odds to chase that flush (and he has a lot of nut flush combos in his range A10hh+). Plus, your range is pretty wide heading to the river with a button call pre-flop, and what could be construed as a delayed c-bet based on weakness shown. If that's the read he took on your range, it makes sense that he's being aggro on the river despite the paired board. And if he's an aggro player to begin with, then there's no way I find a hero fold with the boat here. If he has it, GG. If he isn't aggro, then maybe I can find a fold, but doubtful.

I mean that's great and all but we look anything but weak going turn bet, river bet/3bet. Doubt someone makes the snap judgment to try and make some one fold a river 3 bet.

Pretty easy fold hes has QQ here every time based on his pre flop post flop play. I think betting the 6s on the turn is ok if your looking to bluff the river to get someone off of pair under Q. Now if your value betting the turn I don't like it. i don't think a pair better then 6s is folding the turn but they could fold the river. And your not getting worse hands to call the turn.

Results?

Some people were saying not to bet turn MW here. Can someone explain why this isn't a turn bet? Hero is in BB, flop checks around. Why do we care if the turn improved Hero's range to his opponents, that really isn't relevant.

As far as river, that looks like a fold w/o a specific read /history. Very few combo's your beat against, but the second best strong combos aren't 4-bet shoving often enough... unless he's a drooler. He's more likely to be bluffing than 4-bet jamming a flush here.

I mostly was anti-bet because betting for sure is going to cost you money because you have already put it into the pot where as checking may not, it's unlikely to fold out people in a single bet yet there are no clear river bluffing situations, and the equity you're trying to protect multiway probably costs more than it's worth protecting.

I agree with previous poster that 44 might be a slightly better bet.

My comment about the turn not improving our range significantly was just pointing out that the card is less likely to induce folds from better hands.

I think turn is a bit thin, unless you plan on bluffing rivers sometimes.

I actually like your river bet. I feel like your reasoning for that size is valid. I also like the river 4b.

As played, I didn't see any reads on villian and unless he is some crazy fish or someone who is constantly overplaying his hands, river is a fold.