5z - AK in 4bet pot, shove turn as bluff? - Micro Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

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5z - AK in 4bet pot, shove turn as bluff?

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05-23-2018 , 08:47 PM

LargeNumbers

newbie

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 31

Two hands on Ignition 5z. When I miss flop and turn is it OK to make a PSB shove as a bluff? In H1 I have a gutshot. In H2 I block AJ and KJ. How should AK be played in these situations?

HAND 1
Hero (CO): 142 BB
BTN: 92.4 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has K

fold, fold, Hero raises to 2.4 BB, BTN raises to 8.6 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 22 BB, BTN calls 13.4 BB

Flop: (45.4 BB, 2 players) 6

Hero bets 12 BB, BTN calls 12 BB

Turn: (69.4 BB, 2 players) 3

Hero bets 69.4 BB

HAND 2
Hero (UTG): 101.4 BB
CO: 237.2 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has A

Hero raises to 2.4 BB, fold, CO raises to 8.6 BB, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 20.8 BB, CO calls 12.2 BB

Flop: (43 BB, 2 players) J

Hero bets 14.4 BB, CO calls 14.4 BB

Turn: (71.8 BB, 2 players) 7

Hero bets 66.2 BB

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05-23-2018 , 11:34 PM

NormaJeane

enthusiast

Join Date: May 2018 Posts: 90

Hand 1, just give up when you missed the flop.

Hand 2, we should just call the 3b because people will have a really tight value range when 3betting an UTG player. And again, give up when you miss.

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05-24-2018 , 02:45 AM

LargeNumbers

newbie

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 31

Quote:

Originally Posted by NormaJeane

Hand 2, we should just call the 3b because people will have a really tight value range when 3betting an UTG player. And again, give up when you miss.

I agree on H1. On H2, I prefer not to flat AKo OOP. I'd rather take the fold equity preflop as UTG vs CO/BU. Also the typical 3-bet/call range of villains is JJ AJ+ KQ+, which AKo does well against.

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05-24-2018 , 02:51 AM

NormaJeane

enthusiast

Join Date: May 2018 Posts: 90

Quote:

Originally Posted by LargeNumbers

On H2, I prefer not to flat AKo OOP. I'd rather take the fold equity preflop as UTG vs CO/BU. Also the typical 3-bet/call range of villains is JJ AJ+ KQ+, which AKo does well against.

If that's the range you think villain will have then go ahead 4b AKo.

But for me, I'd prefer to just flat in this spot because I dominate villain's bluff range of Axs.

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05-24-2018 , 02:58 AM

Lazarus Ledd

grinder

Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 505

First hand would x/fold dont see worse hand folding, on 4 straight board I dont think we gonna get credit for jamming overpair.

Second hand I like jam for same reason as first that I didn't like it.

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05-24-2018 , 03:59 AM

LargeNumbers

newbie

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 31

Quote:

Originally Posted by NormaJeane

If that's the range you think villain will have then go ahead 4b AKo.

But for me, I'd prefer to just flat in this spot because I dominate villain's bluff range of Axs.

Ignition 5z is weird. Most people say it's nit infested, but I can't say the same. H1 villain had 97s and H2 villain had QJs. The range I gave above seems to correct on average.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarus Ledd

Second hand I like jam for same reason as first that I didn't like it.

Sorry, I'm having trouble understanding. Are you saying you like the jam because it reps an overpair?

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05-24-2018 , 04:04 AM

NormaJeane

enthusiast

Join Date: May 2018 Posts: 90

Quote:

Originally Posted by LargeNumbers

Ignition 5z is weird. Most people say it's nit infested, but I can't say the same. H1 villain had 97s and H2 villain had QJs.

Be careful though. It may just have been a variance that they showed with these hands. But normally, zoom is nit infested.

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05-24-2018 , 04:13 AM

SharkytheFish

adept

Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 1,114

I think the 4bet in the 1st hand is fine given the positions. I'm giving up ott as I don't think we can fold out much if any of villains flop calling range with a turn barrel. I'm just flatting the 3bet in the 2nd hand. Your opening utg. If villain is aware of position they should be 3betting pretty tight here.

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05-24-2018 , 04:26 AM

a_ntemage

centurion

Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 184

Your fourbet sizing is wayyyy off.. since you have no reads on the player just go massive...
I think 28 to even 31 is totally fine. With your current sizing your saying I have bluffs in this spot which I don't think you ever have. With that size you can just lol shove any board. AK is pretty weaknhand oop unless you are super deep/shallow.

I'm assuming in both spots you are looking to fourbet get it in.

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05-24-2018 , 04:30 AM

#10

a_ntemage

centurion

Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 184

It's not like opponents never threebet hands worse than AK vs utg open... It's not as if opponent is like omg UTG better flat jj and aqs and only threebet KK and AA. very scared money syndrome.
Basically the reasoning with fourbetting should be : since I block AA and KK very heavily and I can easily take down the pot vs perceived depolarized threebet range it's the easiest 4bet hand ever.

If people are threebetong qjs then you just lol 4bet huge.

Just taking down one of these preflop is your /100 winrate.

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05-24-2018 , 04:58 AM

#11

NormaJeane

enthusiast

Join Date: May 2018 Posts: 90

We're not saying that players only 3b an UTG player with premium hands, because a decent reg will have polar 3b range here. Instead, the reason for just flatting is to protect our calling range here like TT/JJ/QQ/AQs with AK. But 4b/calling AK is fine because we block AA and KK and we pick up dead money in the pot when villain folds.

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05-24-2018 , 05:30 AM

#12

.isolated

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 21,495

Quote:

Originally Posted by LargeNumbers

Ignition 5z is weird. Most people say it's nit infested, but I can't say the same.

People who say this are most likely losing players that refuse to learn enough to beat $5nl. My wr over ~40k hands there was just over 20bb/100 and 22bb/100 in aiev/100. It's ridiculously soft and easy.

I also never once bluffed off a stack w/AK. Just wanted to add that for the lolz

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05-24-2018 , 06:15 AM

#13

Ojune

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 5,171

The question is not how should ak be played but how should your range be played
Do we want to ever bet flop then shove turn? If so, is AK a good bluff candidate?

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