I don't know pokerstars' technical methods of gathering data, but if someone we're doing something like that it would be pretty easy to spot. Many such software companies use some form of a 'watchdog' service to keep an eye on the system to ensure people aren't cheating. Blizzard for example uses amservice called 'warden' that keeps an eye on things on the client side, and if cheating is suspected they can pull up certain information about a system.

Combining the play data and other data collected would make proving cheating rather trivial, though its always cat & mouse when it comes to computer security.

.

being naive? more like being an idiot with zero life skills

Jungle probably got taken advantage of many times by this scammer, but is to ignorant to realize it

Yeah I get that, I was just wondering which method stars used to be "sure beyond any reasonable doubt". Was it through watching the play with holecards exposed, or was it from some techincal analysis? that's my question

I see, thanks

tbh Joshu has been active/present in the HSNL community all over the place for some years, anyone could of introduced him

I met him like 5 years ago in London through Alec, go figure right

As someone who's done a lot of criminal defense work in law school and is about to do criminal defense as a career, I can assure you it's nowhere near that simple.

At the risk of sounding repetitive, the problem is deeper than just Stars not turning over the evidence. Stars can say it's sure beyond a reasonable doubt but it has to provide proof that would convince a jury. A jury that is full of people who don't have the understanding of poker that we do. There's what you know and what you can prove in court beyond a reasonable doubt to a bunch of lay people

There are so many evidentiary issues that would arise (for example, most places an expert witness isn't allowed to give an opinion on an ultimate issue in a criminal case so you couldn't even get a poker pro to tell the jury "in my opinion, this is clearly suspicious behavior," no evidence Josh ever accessed the computers, no evidence any malware was on WGC's computer, etc).

Honestly even a crappy defense attorney would have a field day with this case even if Stars fully cooperated

A friend of mine asked me to post here on his behalf. Some of you know him as Bigguylegend or Mike D. He met Joshua Tyler at PCA a couple years ago and Joshua stayed at his house afterwards. Shortly after he was playing a guy at NL HU and the play style matched that of a fish/OP's description. He says he was certain someone could see his hole cards and was suspicious that Josh Tyler compromised his computer while staying with him. He emailed the site (some ipoker skin) and they did nothing for him. The amount was anywhere between 50-100k.

I should not be discussing this situation.

edit: another big player telling me they got hacked by josh tyler (no, i didnt introduce him this time--josh tyler knows many people). gonna inquire...

The best way of safeguarding your living is to have a computer and internet connection dedicated for POKER USE ONLY. Anyone playing for a living, especially $3/$6+, should have this. Nothing else should be installed on that machine other than your poker sites, your HEM/PT and table ninja/AHK. There is no need to have anything none poker related on it. The dedicated internet connection should only ever be used to have that computer connected to it - no phones, no personal computers, no friends who come around to the house, etc.

Skype/AIM/IMing/Facebooking/webbrowsing etc should all be used from your personal computer and another internet connection.

These people who are planting stuff on your computers are doing it as they know your IP address from programs such as Skype, AIM and also from having phishing sites which they will direct you to. Also poker players will allow people into their hotel rooms that they don’t really know, where they have their own poker laptops laid out in full view. This happens at poker events around the world. Letting people into your house when you are not there who can wander about is an issue too.

Unfortunately poker players are notoriously lazy and the vast majority of them will not be bothered to spend 1 BI (or even <1 BB in the case of a nosebleed player) on a dedicated computer. A 2nd internet connection for most people will cost a few BB per month. Players will not be bothered about doing the above as it “wont happen to me” and then be amazed when it does happen to them. Some players wont even bother doing it after being hit for 6 figures, when heavily advised to do it as they are clearly a target.

While the above will not 100% rule out someone infecting your machines, it will heavily reduce the possibility of you getting compromised in this manner

Cliffs:-

Buy a dedicated computer, only install sites & HEM/PT & TN
Get a dedicated internet connection for that computer only
Lock your computer when not in use if people in house
Don’t allow people to use/ go near your laptop when at a live poker tourny

Is there anyone that help out poker players to check if their computers are 100% clean for malware and that the computer is not hacked that have strong references on 2p2?

Anyone good and very reputable?

If prosecuting the dude is avoidable, I'd bet Stars goes that route.

These cases are better off being swept under the rug for a company like PokerStars. Sure they'd ban the guy for life and all of that, but PokerStars doesn't need to advertise that one of their millions of customers hacked the PS site and (if it weren't for a curious OP) might have gotten away with loads of cash.

For a technology based company to admit that its technology is compromise-able, that's pretty big, and the kind of thing that Stars would want to keep on the down low, as much as possible anyway.

Bugs me tho. I was confident PokerStars was safe and secure. Now I'll be looking for more developments on this story, and what (if anything) is being done about it.

"Moderator please attach this post to OP post"

Initially I was not planning on responding to this nonsense, but seeing as it’s gained so much traction and sadly impacted my life in a way I hadn’t thought possible, I shall. I have been further delayed in responding as I had a real life matter to deal with, attending a friend’s funeral.

The information that I am posting today is a presentation of facts followed by my concluding opinion. I will not be biased towards the situation or portray Douglas Polk as something he's not much like he has chosen to do so in regards to me. What Douglas Polk took to write over the last 6 months with legal representation to avoid me suing him for defamation of character, I will take a couple of hours out of my day to address. I am not going to get into a stupid gay ass debate on 2 + 2 as I truly don't give a dogs bollocks as It's a place where ******s settle their issues. But I will be a ****** on this occasion and make my first and last post of life on this site as advised by my peers.

The manner in which I write this response I can only imagine some may not like. Well, when you are accused of a criminal activity by an alleged friend in public, I am sure this gives one the right to tilt reply. I will not make a single response to any comments made; even if Doug decides to continue to hide behind his computer.

I will start off with the obvious, which is to say that I'm outraged by the criminal implications made by Douglas Polk. In fact that is an understatement. I have never seen such a low ball move in all my life. Douglas is nothing like the human portrayed to me by Daniel Cates (Jungleman).

Firstly, I shall state for the record that Jungleman was just being Jungleman. The same way people have their "opinions" of me, they do of him no doubt. I've known Jungleman for approximately 2 years and he is regarded as one of the best NLHU players in the world. No need to go down memory lane but lets just say I acted as a mentor in some aspects of his life over the 2 years as I saw a man struggling in some areas where I comparatively excelled. He was an online nerd being inserted into what we all call "The Poker World" which is full of all sorts of people and can be tricky to adapt to at times. From pure geniuses to absolute **** tards and every person in-between. We partied a few times, hanged out, chatted and that was pretty much it. Of course, needless to say I am also disappointed with him as I truly believed he knew me better and would have helped defend me instead of jumping on the band wagon, but deep down, knowing all his traits and psyche I cannot hold a grudge too long against him.

I don't know the dates and times of everything that has happened as I have a life and continued to live it whilst this absurd, thoughtless and complacent human sat around dealing with a problem which I have now publically been dragged into. I played poker professionally from the age of 18-23 which mostly entailed of HUNL and 6 max NL. Needless to say I know how to play poker and the functionality of how a poker hand is played. The reason this is important is because of the hands which Douglas listed and the manner in which the hacker victimised him was clearly done by someone with little to no knowledge of poker, let alone someone who made a living from the game for a long period of time, 5 years.


I slowly got out of the poker world which many people get sucked into for a lot of their lives going around in circles until they are broke crawling back to their home town with their dick in their hand. I was also one of those people. It took many times of having it all and then losing it all, to realise I needed to wake the **** up. Basically Isildur’s every day life which I’m sure is very stressful. Anyway, I made a lot of awesome friends throughout my time in this world, and enemies too it seems along the way. That’s life people; not everyone is going to like you.


Yes it's true Jungleman introduced me to Douglas Polk and sadly we got on very well. Douglas Polk seemed like a nice guy and not the generic poker nerd who just talks about poker and has no interest in women apart from internet porn at best (common scenario with poker players). His mother was from the UK and as a result had been there many times. He was also a StarCraft guru in my eyes. I love StarCraft and it was the transition for me out of poker. This is what interested me most about Douglas, he played like an Asian kid fresh out of Korea. I would ask for his advice all the time and wanted to improve into a good player to end the constant online ownage. I couldn't give a crap if he played 1 cent 2 cent or 200/400 like he does as I was over poker a long time ago and would rather play OFC (Open Face Chinese) any time. The extent of my poker activity was watching games online here and there and the intermittent checking of poker news sites. I followed the poker world vaguely, at best and played in mostly private games as opposed to the casino,

Once these accusations were first brought to my attention, earlier in the year the first thing I did was call Doug to find out what on earth was going on. He wanted nothing to do with me. Fair enough; I'd feel the same if someone had just raped my friends and I. Regardless, I was extremely disappointed with what had been said as I thought I could trust this inconsiderate human and had shared lots of personal things about my life, shame on me. Anyone who knows me well knows I’m that ride or die friend who will back you whatever situation you are in, but I have my weaknesses too. One of my weaknesses is (hopefully soon to be ‘was’) that I tend to impose myself on people without even realising. Naturally when you are brought up or accustomed to a certain style or way, you assume (wrongly) that, that is how everyone acts or behaves. At my home back in the UK, throughout most of my teenage and adult life my friends would drop by frequently unannounced to eat, sleep, play game consoles; it was like a hangout. I can now see that this way of living is not shared by everyone and some even find it rude. I thought I saw that same qualities in Douglas Polk, so like my usual self I guess you could say I took advantage of his generosity by offering me a place to stay in Vegas whenever I needed. But in my eyes I never saw it as taking advantage as I would have reciprocated in a heartbeat had he asked.

This past year has been a struggle for me. I went bust due to lending money to the wrong people and making a few bad investments. **** happens and I don't dwell on anything too long and jumped straight back on the horse whilst learning my lesson. I was taught that it's ok to fail just never to give up, which I don't and never will. My area of focus has all been on business and nothing to do with poker so there were no motives for me being friends with Douglas other than learning StarCraft and partying here and there. After all, I had never heard of this humans name before Jungleman introduced me to him.

During this period I was being sensible with funds and whilst I was frequently between LA and LV for work, it made complete sense for me to stay with friends. Plus, I much prefer the company of my peers than staying in a hotel room all on my tod jones. Obviously when you are bust you tend to take any freebies you can and Douglas being the generous person; I guess you could say was or is, I don't know anymore, always offered me a place to stay which I was grateful for. I offered my help in many things to make up for his generosity.

I would visit Vegas often for a variety of businesses I was working on, the one Douglas refers to as a ‘tech’ company is actually a Digital Media firm. Anyone with a basic knowledge of computers will know that any Media Firm is far from ‘tech’ as to imply any exceptional hacking skills. This aside, I have barely any knowledge of computers myself beside the usual watching movies, browsing the internet and playing games.

Now, this human continues in his post stating how I was in his house alone. Never once was I in his house alone, there was always his nice entertaining friend Brian who would at least be there. As the public has taken great interest in the ‘shower’ segment of Doug’s post, I may as well inform the readers and remind this human that I was using his shower because he told me I could use his shower in his bedroom (I know I'm imposing but I am aware of social boundaries and would ask before entering someone’s bedroom). The reason I went into his office was to get my Nintendo DS (which I had left behind last time due to his friend using it without my permission and replacing it not where I left it thus me forgetting it). Doug told me it was on his desk as he asked his cleaner or assistant to put it there (both situations occurred at the same time and his friends Ryan Fees, Chin and Brian were all in the house at the time. Never did I go into his office other than on this occasion.

There is however, one thing I am actually guilty of and am pretty sure where all this has stemmed from. One evening I was going out to meet a friend for dinner who was leaving to serve in Iraq, followed by a meeting with a potential new client. I was borrowing Brian’s car and didn’t realise his tints on the window blacken, thus obstructing my view and carelessly reversed into Ryan Fee’s car (minimal damage was done). Regardless, I can sugar coat it how I like, it was my fault and I dealt with the aftermath poorly, both in action and in words. I said to Brian not mention this incident to the others and lets continue with the evening. At no time in my brain did I think or imply that he shouldn’t mention it, and I’ll ignore it as if it never happened. I simply meant lets all enjoy our individual nights, then I'll deal with this tomorrow, otherwise it will put a downer on the evening and I knew this was the first time in a while they were all going out together and didn’t want to hinder it. The following day I woke up late (not at Douglas Polks house as my friend had managed to get me a comp at the Cosmopolitan) and rushed back to the house, to collect my belongings and left for the airport. Hungover and in a rush to catch my flight, my brain jerked and I completely forgot to address the car accident from the night before. At no stage did I think nor would I want Brian to omit such an incident to his close friends in favour of someone he just met. I genuinely, simply, forgot and always intended on addressing it. Of course shortly thereafter I received a phone call about this, I apologised and tried to explain I wasn’t “hit and running” and paid for the damages asap. Ever since this incident they had a pretty big grudge against me, but never in my wildest dreams did I think they would be capable of such an act like this.

Anyway, Douglas Polk goes on to try and credit his assumptions by linking me to previous posts my name has been dragged through. I am completely aware that all this stuff exists, but the same way Douglas Polk has an opinion so does everyone else in the world and you just can't control what others say. Again I don't need to comment on this matter that I'm about to comment on, but seeing as I was dragged in it for just renting a room from the guy (MM) and about to take over the lease, I will. Matt Marafioti has A LOT of issues (impossible to sugar coat that) mostly anger but one thing he is not, is a thief, he is just a genuine guy who needs to stop ****ing tweeting and live the rest of his fortunate life. I like to help fix people…. call it a good or bad trait but he is someone I tried to help and obviously made no difference. The reason for this seemingly little random blurb is because I was dragged into that post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...ayers-1231581/) for no reason. As for the other, we’ll call that dead and buried, and people who actually know the story know what’s up with that.

Back to the story…. The way Douglas Polk dealt with this situation is the most unethical thing I've ever seen and can't begin to explain the anger and resentment I feel. I have been attached to a dumb ass crime that was obviously done by a ****** with no poker knowledge from his description of the event. I offered my help from day 1 to prove I had nothing to do with this absurd situation and he declined. I offered to contact PokerStars to release my account names, or anything else that would help or prove I had nothing to do with this. I even offered it again after he made the post offering to help prove my innocence by working with PokerStars or in anyway before an extensive amount of damage was done. Imagine if this situation happened to you. Imagine you wake up one day, someone you thought was a friend, has accused you publicly of hacking and stealing their money. After all the emotions of anger and betrayal have subsided, you contact the accuser and offer your help, you are willing to do whatever is necessary before the reality of what he has done takes its natural due course with no turning back. He declines as if it’s a game of power and you are left stranded. Helpless. Hated. Great, that’s me now thanks to this…..human.

Sadly, it is now too late as the damage has been done. He tried to bargain with me like this was a fun game for him when In fact this is my life and what he has written is obviously going to have an effect in lots of areas in my life. In fact, it already has. People I know have contacted me saying they want nothing to do with me, whom were my friends (you were never my friend if you react in such a manner so thanks for leaving my life). Companies I work with have taken a step back as they don’t want to be seen associated with me. Investment projects which I have been working on over the past year has also been affected by this as investors are now retracting their positions. All this and more is happening due to an inconsiderate human making accusations based on ASSUMPTIONS with no actual proof of anything. The reason there is no proof is because I DIDN'T DO ANYTHING!!!!!

I don't expect any sympathy nor do I care or want it. But just imagine someone accused you of being a paedophile and blasted it over the internet when it wasn't true. ****s going to stick to you like glue and like it or not, something always tends to happen to the accused person and this matter is no different to my example. People tend to react based on what they hear or read on the internet before they actually know anything about the individual or situation. The media is a prime example of that.


Conclusion

As most people seem to bullet point their own conclusions ill follow suit and do one for everyone.

1. When I first heard about this situation, I instantly contacted Doug to help resolve the situation and absolve my name. He declined.

2. Whilst being a better HUNL player in the days of the poker boom, after playing for 5 years for a living I can quite confidently say that I would do a better job of winning without being detected than calling down with J hi (as he stated in his posted hand history) in impossible spots and winning 99% of pots (clearly someone who has no real poker knowledge). This is in fact obvious to anyone who has played poker for more than a few months.

3. My imposing nature and taking advantage of others generosity when I feel we share the same view, is one of many character flaws which I will continue to work on.

4. I was in the Master Shower because the main man, the legend, Douglas Polk himself told me to do so!!

5. I was in the office reclaiming my Nintendo DS, which he told me was there after he instructed his cleaner or assistant to put it there.

6. I was never alone in the home, let alone ‘many times’ as Douglas Polk recanted.

7. I made a big error in not addressing the car accident immediately, allowed the situation to escalate and changed their opinions of me drastically for the worse.

8. Douglas’ character assassination of me seems to be based on the car incident, me using his shower and him using previous posts where my name was dragged in as proof in his mind. Clearly circumstantial at best plus I have explained the reasons for both fully above.

9. Douglas Polk should learn for future as should others the way he acted in this situation was horrific, unethical and life altering for his victim.

10. The way their operations are set up in that house and how all 5 of these people along with the amount of people they stake and oversee hands live through TeamViewer is completely unethical. Who knows the extent of what goes on… I saw and heard things I am sure the public would find distasteful at best. I don't care nor does me any good, but I thought I'd take a page out of Douglas Polk’s book and lead your minds like he has done.

11. I'm not a hacking genius and had nothing to do with this dumb ass event.

12. I'm a good person with my own personal issues, not an evil sociopath as some described.

13. I'm not commenting on 2+2 again for the rest of my life or in fact on this matter again so don't expect another response or acknowledgement on any of this.

14. I offered my full help to Douglas Polk in every feasible way from day one, which he is fully aware of as is Jungleman who can vouch. He can now leave me alone and continue beating off in his office for all his room mates to watch and join in on TeamViewer as the damage has now been done.

15. Douglas Polk is every bad word in the dictionary, fictionary and every made up word made by man, woman and animal.

16. This post could of been very vulgar and express my real anger but that gets you no where in life so this is me being as professional as one can be and getting my point across.

17. Everything I have stated is all in my own opinion with some critical facts

Michael Drummond's Account of his interaction with Josh

"I'm not big on 2+2 but I thought this story was important enough to post. My name is Michael Drummond and I play mid-high stakes NL and now more PLO.

I met Josh Tyler at the PCA in 2011. We were playing in the same cash games (5/10-10-20) and became friends over that. He even spotted me money once to keep me from having to go all the way to my room. He seemed to know a decent amount of people there and he introduced me to Sam Chauhan, mindset coach, who I ended up hiring for a brief period of time. At the end of the trip he said he was coming out to San Francisco and asked if he could stay with me, and I said yes.

Josh made the trip out to SF shortly after where he stayed with my girlfreind and I for a couple days where we showed him around town, took him out to dinner, and we were as hospitable as possible.

Soon after, I started feeling like I someone was able to see my cards on the sites I was playing on. Obviously, I couldn't be sure and I emailed all the sites saying that something fishy was going on. They said everything looked alright from their end and there was nothing they could do. It's hard to tell how much money I lost during this but probably 10-25k as I got a new computer pretty quickly and it soon stopped. I never connected the dots to Josh staying at my place.

Maybe a year or so later, Josh contacted me again saying he was coming out to San Francisco to have a business meeting and was hoping he could crash at my place. I welcomed him in again and we shot some pool and grabbed sushi. We made it back to my place for a bit, which must have been enough time because he said his meeting was canceled and he was going back to Vegas that night.

At this time I was playing much higher, pretty much straight 25/50 plo across all sites. I was playing everyday and there was always new players in these games. PLO is much harder than NLHE to tell if someone can see your cards or not if they know what they're doing, so it's much harder to catch on. There were a couple matches that stand out in my mind, and I can imagine I lost upwards of 100k to Josh during this time period as I was too ignorant or stubborn to realize what was going on. At this point I was able to connect the dots to Josh, I even called him to call him out but he denied the whole thing. I had no proof, the sites wouldn't provide me with HH and I wasn't 100% sure on anything so I just bought a new computer and moved on."

He is innocent until proven guilty - but if proven gaol is the right place.

I noticed that the long post did not include a denial of Stars seizing cash in an account linked to him.

Stars say they have the proof that someone cheated, if that money was taken from someone else then Josh is in the clear and that person is in the frame for prosecution.

How about this - I offer to meet up with Josh here in the UK and watch him log on to his Stars account and play one hand. I will confirm his account name and thus that he is not banned by Stars. He can also go to his address and contact details to show me that it is his account.

If he uses someone elses account then he is breeching stars Ts and Cs for that account and so stars should suspend it as soon as they know that the true owner was not using it to play that hand.

How about it Josh, care to prove that your stars account is not banned? I'll even buy you a pint in the Vic if you like. If you don't want to reveal the Stars account name, that is fine, I will witness it and report to stars support which account I saw you play on, there will be no need to name the account if you don't want it in the public domain. PS please bring photo ID as I have never met you before.

josh:
- quit poker world now mainly plays OFC and private home games.
- went broke this past year and struggled getting back on his feet. his focus was during this time solely on business, thus scamming douglas couldn't have been his motive. excelling at starcraft was.
- claims he was a poker pro for five years and would be a better cheat than one calling down with J hi. doesn't realize that greed has no boundaries.
- much prefers the company of his peers over staying in hotel rooms yet gets a comped room at the cosmopolitan the night he scratched ryan's car.

- Says he was a pro for 5 years but also mentions constantly going busto and getting tired of it.
- Says he was busto due to bad investments etc.
- Has an MO of meeting people and quickly taking up offers to stay at their houses.
- shortly after they fix their comp he asks to stay again.
- says he isnt in the poker world anymore but seems to be at a lot of tournies and staying with a lot of poker players.

Seems legit.

Any people who have interacted with him have any thoughts on whether he could do this with his own computer knowledge? Wouldnt be surprised if he used someone elses skills + names and ID to carry it out.

He very easily could have used a third account to do this as well. This doesn't really *prove* anything, just a bit of evidence in his favor.

There is already a ridiculous amount of evidence against him unless you propose that the people writing these stories are fabricating them. Indeed then it is a case of he said she said. Take what these guys are saying at face value though - and I can't see a motive for them to lie - and then the evidence is damning. Three different pros now are outing the guy in completely independent situations. That is enough proof for me to snap call 10-1 against me, if we could somehow find out with 100% certainty. Same goes for most other people reading this as well.

I really hope this guys name is tarnished for a very long time to come. Maybe he will come to terms with what he has done and hopefully decide it isn't worth it in the future.

With the caveat that I am nowhere close to a high limit player, either online or live, nor do I pretend to be, I will point out that it not only is it possible Josh worked with an associate (if the allegations are true and I make no comment on their validity), its actually a more plausible scenario given that Josh appears to live in Vegas and the mystery player appears to be currently residing in UK.

The scenario would be Josh doesn't go out looking for people to scam, but rather, when an opportunity arises where he has access to a high limit player's computer, Josh performs some form of computer hocus pocus on said computer that allows a friend/associate of his to see hole cards of the mark. He then contacts said friend, who happens to live in UK, and tells him that the trap has been set, and said friend jumps into action by going onto PokerStars. It's a lot easier to run a good scam when you only do it when you stumble into the right circumstances as opposed to actively seek out marks.

I have absolutely no clue whether the accusations are true nor claim to have any knowledge of this situation beyond what's been posted on this thread. For all I know Josh is the victim of an elaborate scam involving high limit poker players intentionally cheating each other in order to accuse him of nefarious computer hijinx. I'm just pointing out that its entirely possible and IMO more likely that the scam had two people, one to do the computer hacking part, and one (or more) to do the actual poker playing part.

Again, easy to prove with isp records. Hell the OP could do it. Assuming the OP has hand history, get isp records for those times and dates, filter for standard connections, and what's left is suspect. Investigate from there. If those ips remaining belong to josh or close associates of his, that's a smoking gun.

Seriously, proving this to a legal standard is EASY.

I'd be happy to offer my expertise in doing so, as well as offer expert testimony should such a thing go to trial.

jt's post is lol. thing with criminals is that theyre criminals because theyre not smart enough to make money in a legit way. that makes them just dumb enough to think they can fool people who are smarter than them

jt refers to his poker abilities as
1) too good to cheat in an obvious way
2) not good enough to make money

you, or whoever played the victims, did so in an obvious way because you knew you were under time constraints. the victim would inevitably catch on. therefore you must rake them for the maximum, thus disregarding any attempt to hide the cheating because that costs you money in the short term

1) you are socially well adjusted compared to most people, you even excel at it
2) you have a hard time recognizing boundaries, and pretty much act like kramer did on seinfeld

1) you worked in some kind of media business, not as a software engineer. this somehow means you cant know how to hack people, because anyone who works in media is ******ed with computers. at least that you would have to be true in order for you to have a point

2) no evidence that you were involved in any business, at all, was provided. you are in x industry because you said so, and you know y about computers because you said so.

are you under the assumption that you word carries any weight? no

1) the post by wcgryder is inconsequential and ******ed. I mean, you have a ****ing life, and that's why you waited so long to respond

2) the post by wcgryder is horrific and life altering. how can you do this to an INNOCENT man? cry cry cry

i only read like half the post

someone get this kid arrested

True. it adds complexity and an accomplice but the crime I am interested in is not hacking it is cheating. If that was an accomplice it is him/her I want going down as a test case not yet another computer hacker. No precedent there,(well maybe a hacker who helps a cheater can get the same UK two year sentence for just helping a cheater).

I made the proposition because his denial avoided any mention of whether he had monies seized or his account frozen. Not denying that Stars had done this to him was a big gap in his tale.

Plus he is innocent until proven guilty, he should welcome the chance to add evidence to his side of the case. Plus I offered a free pint. It does not prove his innocence but that is not the hurdle, it would help with reasonable doubt as if Stars "beyond reasonable doubt" evidence applies to another person we are left with circumstantial stuff (to date) on Josh.

As for location, Josh was in the US on business, he lives in the UK. The account was not used from the US so I assume as a UK registered account(known) it was very likely used in the UK to cheat, the question is was it an account linked to Josh - if so Stars evidence (undisclosed) plays.

Absolutely true. I didn't say otherwise, just pointing out that the focus on "figure out if the account itself belongs to Josh" misses out on high probability that whoever did the "playing" and whoever did the actual "hacking" are probably not the same two people.

I also believe that Josh lives in LA, unless I read his post wrong. And spends a lot of time in Vegas on business. But he could have been in UK during the specified time even if he doesn't currently reside there.

This is the good that comes from Doug making his OP and whats great about 2+2 imo, i want to share what i no about Josh just so people can keep adding to the info regarding him, he randomly message a poker friend of mine asking if he could stay a few nights while he was in the city (euro country) Josh had never met or spoke online to this poker player but the friend Josh said he heard of him from was legit so hey whatever yer if you here anyway you can stay, he stayed acted like a complete ******* to everyone and didnt get along with anyone and left shorter than he planned on staying, my poker friend did not get a good vibe from Josh and reformatted his PC the night he left. sick run good here imo!!

Obv im not saying Josh did anything but just another "random" trip to stay at a pokers house he has never meet before.

His ex gf ashley Cave, told me that he planted bug/viruses in peoples computers so that he could see their hole cards. She said she watched him play being able to cheat and saw it first hand.

lol. that post from josh has to be a level right?