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Old 02-16-2018, 02:53 PM   #1
Lonkaren
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Bluffing vs fish in 3 bet pot

http://www.pokerhandreplays.com/view.php/id/8754543

Should I bluff here even vs fish? I know that i used a more polarized size repping only a straight but perhaps fish doesn't know that.

This could just be a post to relieve some tilt because I think its pretty standard but would like some opinions anyway.
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Old 02-18-2018, 05:48 PM   #2
live-cash-iQ
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Re: Bluffing vs fish in 3 bet pot

cant see him folding his 3x range from bb on that run out . what did he have ?
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Old 02-18-2018, 05:50 PM   #3
Lonkaren
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Re: Bluffing vs fish in 3 bet pot

QQ with blocked flushdraw. Prob one of the worst hand to call with there.
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Old 02-19-2018, 01:59 AM   #4
Imaginary F(r)iend
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Re: Bluffing vs fish in 3 bet pot

Why on earth would you do this?
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Old 02-19-2018, 02:47 PM   #5
Lonkaren
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Re: Bluffing vs fish in 3 bet pot

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Why on earth would you do this?
Wtf is this post? Explain why its wrong then instead of giving some ****ty rant.
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Old 02-20-2018, 01:15 AM   #6
Imaginary F(r)iend
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Re: Bluffing vs fish in 3 bet pot

Why are you trying to balance against a fish esp with this sizing?

They are a fish for a reason. They look at their own cards and ignore your range on average.

So no, you shouldn't bluff. You shouldn't balance especially here with a bigger sizing because they have no clue what it means.
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Old 02-20-2018, 05:41 AM   #7
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Re: Bluffing vs fish in 3 bet pot

https://goo.gl/images/wkuhuV


Would you take the same line on mars?
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Old 02-20-2018, 03:02 PM   #8
Lonkaren
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Re: Bluffing vs fish in 3 bet pot

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Originally Posted by Imaginary F(r)iend View Post
Why are you trying to balance against a fish esp with this sizing?

They are a fish for a reason. They look at their own cards and ignore your range on average.

So no, you shouldn't bluff. You shouldn't balance especially here with a bigger sizing because they have no clue what it means.
I wasnt trying to balance I just thought that my bet would work enough of the time and that he would fold an overpair(obviously I was wrong). From what I remember he wasn't a complete whale so isnt this a spot where you should go for the bluff even against fish especially on a scary board like this?
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Old 02-21-2018, 04:13 AM   #9
Imaginary F(r)iend
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Re: Bluffing vs fish in 3 bet pot

If your plan is to make fishy player to fold an overpair in a 3-bet pot, you need a new plan.
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Old 02-21-2018, 01:38 PM   #10
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Re: Bluffing vs fish in 3 bet pot

If the fishy player is particularly sticky then I'd say your range is not really going to be strong enough ever to throw him off a hand.

Aside from the result of this particular hand, I appreciate your line. What did you put your opponent on once the river hits?
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Old 02-21-2018, 02:35 PM   #11
Lonkaren
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Re: Bluffing vs fish in 3 bet pot

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If the fishy player is particularly sticky then I'd say your range is not really going to be strong enough ever to throw him off a hand.

Aside from the result of this particular hand, I appreciate your line. What did you put your opponent on once the river hits?
On the turn his range was probably pretty strong because of fish tight 3 betting range but could still contain some broadways that would fold. But I really wanted him to fold his most likely holdings which is TT+. Obviously he's not folding jacks but I think almost all fish auto bets top set on the turn there so dont think he'll have that enough often to even take that into consideration. I mean there has to be a breaking point where he will fold an overpair. Can't imagine most fishes calling if I shove 2x pot on the river on that board for example. So with my big sizing on the turn and on the river I thought that fish will realise its a board where I have many premium hands and that many bluffs, and hopefully fold a 1 pair hand.
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Old 02-22-2018, 06:18 AM   #12
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Re: Bluffing vs fish in 3 bet pot

I don't know if a fish is capable of folding an overpair, even on a fairly dangerous board like this. Presumably I think that his logic was something to the tune of:

I 3-bet preflop, this guy will probably fold lower connected cards (98,79, 56 etc) so I assume he probably has a Jack I can't fold to.

T8 is obviously dangerous for him but again I think his intention (rightfully) was to force you off that preflop and he can't realistically give you credit for it. Obviously his line is going to be exploitable if you're continuing your betting strategy like this in the future however.
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Old 02-22-2018, 08:24 AM   #13
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Re: Bluffing vs fish in 3 bet pot

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Originally Posted by Feldheimer1 View Post
I don't know if a fish is capable of folding an overpair, even on a fairly dangerous board like this. Presumably I think that his logic was something to the tune of:

I 3-bet preflop, this guy will probably fold lower connected cards (98,79, 56 etc) so I assume he probably has a Jack I can't fold to.

T8 is obviously dangerous for him but again I think his intention (rightfully) was to force you off that preflop and he can't realistically give you credit for it. Obviously his line is going to be exploitable if you're continuing your betting strategy like this in the future however.
First of all when he 3 bets that small oop 200bb deep im literally calling every suited hand that I open from the cutoff + a bunch of other hands. Also I wont play a jack like this ever. So In theory there's some flushdraws and 1-2 straightdraws that I will bluff there but he double blocks it with his hand. As value I got 4 combos of T8s, 9-15 combos of sets and 5 combos of 2 pair hands.

So yeah I shouldn't have gave him credit to fold a strong hand on the river but its a pretty bad call imo.
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Old 02-22-2018, 11:41 AM   #14
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Re: Bluffing vs fish in 3 bet pot

You wouldn't play ANY Jack that way? Calling after his preflop 3bet and then leading out yourself is indicative of a jack or better (plus equity-heavy hands) for sure. I don't think it's a bad way to play Jack (until the river that is). It's a decent rep with the turn bet, I think. The call suggests that you're behind if you are holding a jack. Did you consider checking back the river? If he's sticky then why fire off? Will many fish consider folding in a fairly large pot given the action thus far?
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Old 02-24-2018, 07:34 PM   #15
julien.roy
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Re: Bluffing vs fish in 3 bet pot

No, the only hand you are getting him to fold is AXss here. When he calls your turn bet you need to be shutting down. Accepting your fate at a lost pot.
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Old 02-27-2018, 07:29 AM   #16
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Re: Bluffing vs fish in 3 bet pot

You could go easy and say its fine readless depending on how exactly your range looks like its an okay combo I would say.
Or you could make it difficult and determine exactly which combos you need to bluff.

Just observe how the fish plays and dont overbluff against an unknown.
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Old 03-03-2018, 09:24 PM   #17
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Re: Bluffing vs fish in 3 bet pot

The fish isn't folding overpairs when the front door flush draw misses.
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Old 03-05-2018, 08:11 AM   #18
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Re: Bluffing vs fish in 3 bet pot

if you bluff it's probably smarter to shove allin here 1.5x pot
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Old 03-07-2018, 01:45 AM   #19
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Re: Bluffing vs fish in 3 bet pot

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Originally Posted by LeKiii_Fish View Post
if you bluff it's probably smarter to shove allin here 1.5x pot
Yeah at least then you don't have to work out how much to reload
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Old 03-07-2018, 06:21 AM   #20
Lonkaren
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Re: Bluffing vs fish in 3 bet pot

Seems like everyone here gives no credit to the fish at all.
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Old 03-07-2018, 06:47 PM   #21
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Re: Bluffing vs fish in 3 bet pot

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Originally Posted by Lonkaren View Post
Seems like everyone here gives no credit to the fish at all.
That’s pretty much what poker is based on.
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Old 03-10-2018, 05:00 PM   #22
jaybee99
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Re: Bluffing vs fish in 3 bet pot

Follow the general rule of thumb. You are not getting a fish to fold an overpair enough times to make a bluff justifiable. Fish will find any random excuse to make that call like 'LOL he has a J I win. Or there is a FD which didn't get there, he's bluffing!'.

So just dont bluff a fish, get him when u have the goods.
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Old 03-16-2018, 06:47 AM   #23
Ojune
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Re: Bluffing vs fish in 3 bet pot

Not checking back Q high, there are plenty better hands we can make him fold such as air

and he's probably betting a lot of his ovp ott
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Old 03-18-2018, 01:44 PM   #24
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Re: Bluffing vs fish in 3 bet pot

This bluff doesn't feel quite right to me.

I would've raised all my value hands on the flop that I'd barrel turn and river with on this runout...

To me, it looks like a missed flush draw mostlikely or 87s.

Given the fact that he had QQ, an overbet shove might have worked.
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:13 PM   #25
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Re: Bluffing vs fish in 3 bet pot

To everybody saying that an overbet won't fold off his overpairs enough to justify ever doing it as a bluff: Are you always overbet shoving a straight here? What about a set? What about 2pair? If not, why not? He's calling overpairs way too often, right?

Unless he's a massive whale/calling station this is standard. You have a good blocker and no spade. Readless I like your sizing, but if he's overcalling standard sizes I like a shove
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