I don't have the link, but I have the text of the thread (slightly edited for readability).
Later,
Che
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SLOWPLAYING IN BIG BET HOLD’EM
I think there are very, very few situations in NL/PL hold’em where the decision to slowplay is clearly more profitable than otherwise. In limit hold’em, I cannot think of a situation where you should ever slowplay.
My objection to slow playing is not entirely based on the fear of suckouts. In fact, fear of suckouts has little to do with it. It’s a matter of how to most profitably play your hands. And in NL hold’em, I think betting is always the way to go.
The biggest problem with slowplaying is that you give away your hand by doing so. Whenever somebody “wakes up” in a later round it’s pretty obvious they were slowplaying. I’m not talking about when a scare card comes like a third flush card and they move all-in. If somebody wakes up at that point, they are representing a flush, not slowplaying a set. So when somebody wakes up on an innocuous turn or river, you can be fairly sure they’ve slowplayed a monster. This usually means a set or a straight. If you are even THINKING of slowplaying two pair then you really need your head examined.
It’s simple really. Somebody is MUCH more likely to commit their stack on the flop with a hand like top pair than on the river. So if you’ve got a monster, get top pair to play aggressively with you right there on the flop. Another problem is that by slowplaying you often pass up a chance to get ANY chips because somebody with a hand like top pair who would have played with you will have to slowdown once the board gets scarier. Now you’ve lost profit because the board is too scary for anyone to do anything.
By not slowplaying, you also put more doubt into your opponents heads, especially if you have position. If three people check to me on the button and I bet out with the nuts, I’m MUCH more likely to get action than if I wait until the turn or river. The button should bet out with quads as far as I’m concerned. You are (hopefully) betting aggressively from the button regularly, so there’s no need to disguise a big hand when you have it.
The other problem with slowplaying is that your opponent either has NO chance of catching up or a SLIM chance of beating you. Let’s say the flop comes KKQ and I’ve got 99. Even if a 9 comes on the river, I’m not putting in much money. MAYBE I’ll call a pot size bet if I’m in a bluff-catching mood. I’m certainly not going to call an all-in bet by the button who suddenly wakes up.
So even when you let them catch up slightly, you don’t make much. But you lose your whole stack when they catch up enough to beat you.
By betting you also look like you’re protecting a vulnerable hand. Then, you might actually get action from somebody who improves because they won’t think you have such a big hand to begin with. Like with the 99 example. Let’s say I have the button and the nut full house bets the size of the pot. We’ve both got huge stacks. I might call because I want to make a move on him if he checks or I might think he’s bluffing. If a nine comes on the turn and he bets again, I’m MUCH more likely to commit or at least raise a good amount. Instead, let’s say he checks to me and I bet the flop. He calls and check-raises me all-in on the turn. Even if I hit that nine, I will release more often than if he had started out as the aggressor. I’ll put him on a slowplay.
Many other players love to slowplay big hands. That’s why I think it’s best to keep betting with big monsters, because they expect you to slowplay like they would. You will get action from people with decent hands. On a flop like KKQ, you might get action from a queen if you bet from the button. You might get action from a straight draw. You might get bluffed by someone who just doesn’t believe you have a king. And you MIGHT get action from some fool who slowplayed QQ preflop or from some poor bastard with AK or KJ or KT or K9 or K2 if the players are bad enough. I’ve made HUGE pots by betting on the button with a monster. Somebody comes over the top, and it’s over.
If you want to induce a bluff by slowplaying out of position, it’s just as valid to induce a bluff by betting. If I flop the nuts and Sam B (an aggressive Bay Area player) is sitting behind me, I’m going to bet the flop and bet the turn and check the river. He will move in on me roughly 90% of the time with nothing. I would say you’ll get bluffed just as often when you check or bet, so you might as well bet when you have the nuts.
So, while slowplaying can be a profitable move, I think you make MORE money by not slowplaying. The concept of sucking people in for more money when you hold a monster doesn’t hold water in my opinion. You want to instigate action, you want to induce people to make a play at you, you want to get the other guy who was slowplaying the second nuts to finally wake up. If all the money doesn’t go in until the river when you flopped the nuts, you are not in good shape. Why is all that money going in now? With a board of KKQTA, if I have KQ but all the money goes in on the river when that ace shows up, I’ve got to be worried. It’s obvious to everyone that I slowplayed a big full house or that I MADE a big full house. So if somebody is there with me, he must have me beat.
The extra few chips I might make by waiting for someone to take a stab at the pot will not make up for the times when I can double my whole stack by instigating action, and it certainly won’t make up for those times when I LOSE my whole stack by giving someone a cheap river.
One last note. When playing pot limit, it’s even more important not to slowplay because you lose opportunity to get a lot of chips into the pot. Keep betting and building a pot.
So there you go, that’s why I think slowplaying is almost always the wrong move. I KNOW I’m going to get hammered for this one.
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Tommy Angelo:
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Good post, Nate. I agree with every concept, but not entirely with your conclusions.
First, the word “slow play” is not clearly defined. Example, if I flop top pair and two players check to me and I bet $20 into an $80 pot, is that a slowplay?
No need to answer that. You can see there are infinite degrees of slowness. And oftentimes there is no clear line between “slow play” and “cautious play.”
Second, I question your absolutism because each one-on-one matchup at a full no-limit game is like a seperate game unto itself, with it’s own history, long range and short, and being flexible has value on its own.
Yeah, I’m stretching to find any sort of rebuttal. Good post.
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Goodie:
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Let me give you an example of a hand that I slowplayed in the 340 WPF no limit event on Sunday. There were two callers and I was in the big blind with 22. The flop came something like 8 5 2 offsuit. I can’t imagine that betting this flop is the right thing to do. Checking this flop and having it get checked around is not at all a bad thing. There are many cards that can come off on the turn that might make one of the callers a second best hand. As it turned out, and Ace came off the deck on the turn and I bet out. Neither of them had an ace, but they very well could have and paid me off whereas they would have definetly folded to a bet on the flop.
As a rule, slowplaying is not correct, but there are many situations in which it is very much the right thing to do.
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Natedog:
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I have almost no tournament experience. Tournaments and live ring game play are very very different. I will point out that checking is not necessarily slowplaying. Check-calling would be more of a slow-play.
One thing about slowplaying. It DOES become correct the less aggressive you are. If you don’t often try to pick up pots or raise with position preflop, then slowplaying is probably the way to go when you hit the flop hard. This should be obvious.
But I believe you should normally be playing fairly aggressively, pushing hard when people show weakness and picking up uncontested pots whenever the opportunity presents itself. If this is the case, slowplaying is silly. Bet when you have a hand, because you’re betting so often without one.
In the case of your 22 hand, you may be looking at this wrong. You didn’t get any action did you? I don’t see why you think slowplaying was correct.
That ace on the turn may have killed any action you might have got from your opponents. Even with mere overcards, you might have got a call or even a bluff-raise on the flop. If your opponents held 67 or 34, any 8, any overpair like TT, even A5 or overcards, you might have got some action on that flop. By checking and waiting for the scare card to come on the turn, you MIGHT have killed your own action. Just a thought. Those times when you are facing 85, A8, or a big overpair, you’re going to get the action anyway, so don’t slow down. The only thing that can hurt you is if a scare card comes and puts the frighteners on someone who may have played hard with you on the flop.
In other words, I think slowplaying your 22 was a mistake, unless you are generally very timid on the flop. Even then, you should probably bet out and hope somebody caught a piece.
However, I have almost no tourney experience, so this situation may call for a slowplay. Stack sizes, antes, blinds and tourney stage were not mentioned.
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