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Old 03-06-2021, 09:39 AM   #1
howbathat
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5/5/20 TT 4 way facing PSB on flop

8 handed

UTG+1 : 4Kish (very transparent, bet big when he has it, like overbet every street, check when he does not)
LJ : 5K (maniac, 80/40 or close to that, very bluffy with bottom pairs, gs, draws, plays any two suited, or not when given odds ran his stack up from a €600 BI).
Hero (CO) : 1.5K (in for 3K, nothing much to say except that I was quite unfortunate that night, most players in the hand don't know me except for LJ, but I don't think it matters to him).
SB : 700ish (in for 2K+ loose passive).

UTG straddles 20, UTG+ 1 raises to 120, LJ calls and I pick up TT, I call and so does SB.

Flop is 562

UTG +1 check, LJ quickly bet 400

We have about 1.4K behind, hero?

Fwiw:

we've seen LJ do this type of play with bottom pair earlier on, but with a much more shallow stack.

SB is not a great concern, he likes to see flops but does not do well with aggression.

Also, do you think the suits are relevant to your decision here? Would you have raised pre? My main reason not to here being UTG+1.
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Old 03-09-2021, 01:49 AM   #2
civ77
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Re: 5/5/20 TT 4 way facing PSB on flop

I mean dude. Given your description of the player it’s the easiest shove of all time. What’s there to even discuss here??
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Old 03-10-2021, 05:55 PM   #3
howbathat
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Re: 5/5/20 TT 4 way facing PSB on flop

I know it is a stupid question tbh...
I just don't have anybody I trust with their opinion to discuss it with. I just figured I had nothing to lose posting it.

That's what I did, and the run out is pretty irrelevant.
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Old 03-15-2021, 02:50 AM   #4
grant2
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Re: 5/5/20 TT 4 way facing PSB on flop

As played the push makes sense.

Somehow I feel like preflop, raise/fold is a better line than simply calling. Unless you felt like set-mining, but 1.5k seems a bit short to be set-mining with against a $120 call.

What do you think the 6x raise preflop tells you about UTG's range?
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Old 03-18-2021, 07:03 PM   #5
MalkasGambit
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Re: 5/5/20 TT 4 way facing PSB on flop

So an 80/40 raises and you don't 3b/jam here? Makes no sense.

Easiest shove ever as played.

Try to cover maniacs next time
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Old 03-21-2021, 03:52 AM   #6
howbathat
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Re: 5/5/20 TT 4 way facing PSB on flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by MalkasGambit View Post
So an 80/40 raises and you don't 3b/jam here? Makes no sense.

Easiest shove ever as played.

Try to cover maniacs next time
No UTG +1 is the OR, the maniac cold calls. Unless we're talking flop, and that's what I did.

"What do you think the 6x raise preflop tells you about UTG's range?"

6x is a pretty standard open in this game. But UTG+1 has been crazy transparent so far, as well as tight pre when he opens. I would guess his range to be something like 88+ QJs+ here. I am not pure set mining because I know how he will play the flop. Check call if he has some decent equity or medium strength hand/check fold if he misses/bet pot if he feels good about it.
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Old 03-29-2021, 11:22 PM   #7
abgtr
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Re: 5/5/20 TT 4 way facing PSB on flop

I think the raise/fold preflop comment makes a lot of sense here. With the range you've given him (88+/QJs+), 3b/f is a really good line. Some $250 sizing gets the job done and let's us fold if there is a shove.

As played, I really don't know what shoving here does. Big pair may still be at UTG+1, and against a QJss we are flipping or so. Fold>Shove>Call? Is fold just terrible?
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Old 04-01-2021, 09:55 AM   #8
ChaosInEquilibrium
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Re: 5/5/20 TT 4 way facing PSB on flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by abgtr View Post
I think the raise/fold preflop comment makes a lot of sense here. With the range you've given him (88+/QJs+), 3b/f is a really good line. Some $250 sizing gets the job done and let's us fold if there is a shove.

As played, I really don't know what shoving here does. Big pair may still be at UTG+1, and against a QJss we are flipping or so. Fold>Shove>Call? Is fold just terrible?
This is a pretty great board for UTG+1 PFR even multi-way. I guess he could be checking back aces but I figure he’s least make a small bet with JJ-KK. Seems we can largely discredit an overpair from his range after flop check.

Given PFR player description that he plays hands transparently, he never has an overpair here.

LJ can have a flush draw or even just a pair of 6s (he’s an 80/40). Shove seems fine on the flop. I guess we could also just call and then get it in on safe turns. But yeah, Fold seems to be the worst option of the three.

Last edited by ChaosInEquilibrium; 04-01-2021 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 04-01-2021, 10:04 AM   #9
ChaosInEquilibrium
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Re: 5/5/20 TT 4 way facing PSB on flop

Can anyone explain the justification for raise/fold with a hand like TT that has no blocker effects? I would think we’d want to be more polarized with our pf 3bet range at 70bb stack depth, and rather use hands with good blocker effects like KQo or wheel suited aces. I think I’d prefer a call with TT to play the hand in position against a villain who will give a lot of information about his hand when he possibly bets into 3 players on the flop. Given additional information that PFR plays hands transparently I think this makes call pf even more attractive. If we 3bet are we just hoping to get a call from the PFR with the narrow part of his range that we crush 88-99 and the narrow part of his range that were flipping against QJs-KQs-KJs-KQo? Seems like a very narrow part of his range that we’re trying to isolate against when he has a ton of overpairs and AK that crush us and will just 4bet iso. Will villain even call with QJs if we 3bet at this stack depth? If I were him, I’d probably fold such a hand as well as KQo/KJs. Seems like a raise with TT is just turning our hand into a bluff.

Last edited by ChaosInEquilibrium; 04-01-2021 at 10:22 AM.
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Old 04-08-2021, 01:00 AM   #10
acesup81
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Re: 5/5/20 TT 4 way facing PSB on flop

You can shove pre as described. Just a matter of style and schematics.
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Old 04-17-2021, 06:12 AM   #11
grant2
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Re: 5/5/20 TT 4 way facing PSB on flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosInEquilibrium View Post
Can anyone explain the justification for raise/fold with a hand like TT that has no blocker effects?
a) when 2 weak players are putting in decent money preflop, I expect it's much more likely *someone* will put in a 3bet as an attempt to isolate the weak money and outplay them postflop.

If we've got the cards & confidence to do it first, great. On the other hand, 1 of the 4 players left to act may decide to do it with iffy hands like JTs+, and that puts us in an annoying spot.

And when we don't get 3bet, who know how many of those 4 players will be enticed to overcall. I'm not eager to go multi-way to a flop with TT when my effective stack is only ~13x the bet I just put in.

b) Against an ABC player + maniac + whoever else might decide to overcall, there are very few flops I can feel good to see. Most of them will be better flops for at least 1 of my opponents' ranges.

I'd rather set myself up to have at least -some- easy decisions postflop.

c) UTG+1 is also facing the dilemma of having a hard time figure out his place postflop, which means his transparency will become much less useful to us.

E.g. imagine UTG+1 has 77/88/99 on this flop. He may think he's "got it" and act strong enough we feel we have to fold despite dominating him.

Quote:
Seems like a raise with TT is just turning our hand into a bluff.
Against the transparent player? Maybe, probably.
Against the maniac? It's a value raise.

I would be happy to knock the UTG+1 off any broadway combos which I expect he has a lot of, preflop.
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Old 04-20-2021, 06:41 PM   #12
howbathat
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Re: 5/5/20 TT 4 way facing PSB on flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by grant2 View Post
a) when 2 weak players are putting in decent money preflop, I expect it's much more likely *someone* will put in a 3bet as an attempt to isolate the weak money and outplay them postflop.

If we've got the cards & confidence to do it first, great. On the other hand, 1 of the 4 players left to act may decide to do it with iffy hands like JTs+, and that puts us in an annoying spot.

And when we don't get 3bet, who know how many of those 4 players will be enticed to overcall. I'm not eager to go multi-way to a flop with TT when my effective stack is only ~13x the bet I just put in.

b) Against an ABC player + maniac + whoever else might decide to overcall, there are very few flops I can feel good to see. Most of them will be better flops for at least 1 of my opponents' ranges.

I'd rather set myself up to have at least -some- easy decisions postflop.

c) UTG+1 is also facing the dilemma of having a hard time figure out his place postflop, which means his transparency will become much less useful to us.

E.g. imagine UTG+1 has 77/88/99 on this flop. He may think he's "got it" and act strong enough we feel we have to fold despite dominating him.


Against the transparent player? Maybe, probably.
Against the maniac? It's a value raise.

I would be happy to knock the UTG+1 off any broadway combos which I expect he has a lot of, preflop.
Strong post, thank you.
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Old 04-30-2021, 11:04 PM   #13
jdr0317
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5/5/20 TT 4 way facing PSB on flop

Why not 500/call off pre?


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Old 06-04-2021, 06:44 PM   #14
donutman
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Re: 5/5/20 TT 4 way facing PSB on flop

Is it just me or is grant2 response amazing/eye opening? Am I missing something? Like, if I feel like I learned a lot am I terrible at poker?
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