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Medium-High Stakes PL/NL Discussions about medium-high stakes pot-limit and no-limit hold'em (2-4 and up)

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Old 06-04-2018, 02:39 PM   #1
koreanzombieboy
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Diamond 5/10 NL - Interesting Spot - Thoughts?

Playing 5-10 NL at local casino.

Hero: $2000
Villian: $1500
Villian #2 $1500

Must move table, sat down and played for a few orbits.

I'm UTG and get dealt AK of diamonds - raise to $35
Middle Position (Villian #1) (Solid Reg) 3 bets to $105
Button Villian #2) (Unknown Player) 4 bets $300

Hero?
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Old 06-04-2018, 03:19 PM   #2
DannyAIC
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Re: 5/10 NL - Interesting Spot - Thoughts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by koreanzombieboy View Post
Playing 5-10 NL at local casino.

Hero: $2000
Villian: $1500
Villian #2 $1500

Must move table, sat down and played for a few orbits.

I'm UTG and get dealt AK of diamonds - raise to $35
Middle Position (Villian #1) (Solid Reg) 3 bets to $105
Button Villian #2) (Unknown Player) 4 bets $300

Hero?
I know some will disagree with me, but for me this is a pretty easy fold. Why do I want to play AKs out of position in whats gonna be a huge pot? Unless you have reads on the villains that say otherwise, it seems like you're up against some pretty strong pairs where even if you improve there could be reverse implied odds. If for some reason you think they're both FOS then shove, otherwise fold.
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Old 06-04-2018, 03:59 PM   #3
apricotjello
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Re: 5/10 NL - Interesting Spot - Thoughts?

you could probably poll 100 crushers and not get a definitive answer.

not a crusher but i’m just ripping it here
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Old 06-04-2018, 04:34 PM   #4
koreanzombieboy
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Re: 5/10 NL - Interesting Spot - Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by DannyAIC View Post
I know some will disagree with me, but for me this is a pretty easy fold. Why do I want to play AKs out of position in whats gonna be a huge pot? Unless you have reads on the villains that say otherwise, it seems like you're up against some pretty strong pairs where even if you improve there could be reverse implied odds. If for some reason you think they're both FOS then shove, otherwise fold.
I was thinking that too and the fact that I had only $35 invested; however, I did not fold. lol.
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Old 06-05-2018, 09:25 AM   #5
DannyAIC
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Re: 5/10 NL - Interesting Spot - Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by koreanzombieboy View Post
I was thinking that too and the fact that I had only $35 invested; however, I did not fold. lol.
I hope you screamed yolo as you shoved.
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Old 06-05-2018, 03:31 PM   #6
koreanzombieboy
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Re: 5/10 NL - Interesting Spot - Thoughts?

lol. In my head I did. I didn't quite shove, I raised to $900 and Villian 1 snap shoves all in for around $600 more and Vilian 2 folded. I obviously call and Villian 1 shows - KK

Flop - A 10 3, Turn 4 River A

I win but got lucky. In hindsight, this seems like a fold, but wanted to see what others would do.
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Old 06-07-2018, 07:58 AM   #7
NiallOBrien
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Re: 5/10 NL - Interesting Spot - Thoughts?

I would probably have folded. Does anyone limp utg with a hand like AKs?
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Old 06-07-2018, 04:16 PM   #8
russianbear13
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Re: 5/10 NL - Interesting Spot - Thoughts?

I would’ve folded as well. Villains are showing too much strength against AK.
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Old 06-09-2018, 12:55 PM   #9
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Re: 5/10 NL - Interesting Spot - Thoughts?

Assuming UTG means it's a full ring table with 8 or more players, I think you jam a range where his KK is indifferent to calling off, which means you jam AA and a couple Axs bluffs.

Highest EQ Axs are A5s, then A4s/A3s/ATs, around there. AKs should still be the best bluff jam as it blocks some KK from calling.

Not sure what you do with KK honestly. I think it calls, but then you'd call a few other hands as well? Not sure. Maybe call KK only, donk non-Ahi flops?


Anyway; if you think the cold 4bettor will fold KK to a jam, you should jam all Axs. If you think he calls KK to a jam, you should fold all Axs. If you think he's perfectly mixing (or you don't know) then AKs seems like a jam, while A5s and ATs are close/indifferent.
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Old 06-11-2018, 03:33 AM   #10
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Re: 5/10 NL - Interesting Spot - Thoughts?

Against unknowns, it's not really a difficult fold.

Calling puts you in a terrible spot. You're almost surely behind at least 1 player, if not dominated. There's nearly no flop that gets you paid off to compensate for the risk. Not to mention you don't cap that action so you could simply be burning $300 preflop.

Apparently you recognize that the 5-bet was not based in any kind of strategy so no need to comment on that.
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Old 07-10-2018, 01:35 PM   #11
PorkedPoker
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Re: 5/10 NL - Interesting Spot - Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by apricotjello View Post
you could probably poll 100 crushers and not get a definitive answer.

not a crusher but i’m just ripping it here
I think that for 150bb this is pretty close, but i like to get involved. I like All In or Fold.

You have the two best blockers, when called you aren't chuffed but have OK equity at times.

I don't think we can flat the 4bet though...

Although one thing to consider, how often in live poker do we sold the cold 4bet? haha
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Old 07-10-2018, 08:30 PM   #12
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Re: 5/10 NL - Interesting Spot - Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by PorkedPoker View Post
Although one thing to consider, how often in live poker do we sold the cold 4bet? haha
Pretty reasonable amount of time if you have an aggressive player known for 3-betting a lot.

But not often enough to make calling a 4-bet w/ AKs a smart move.
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Old 07-25-2018, 02:27 PM   #13
GhostInAJar
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Re: 5/10 NL - Interesting Spot - Thoughts?

I can't see calling ever being the correct play, seems like a jam or fold situation.

Hard to assume that a jam gets called by anything weaker than QQ+ AK live, which we have 42% equity against heads up, which means the EV of a jam and getting called is ~-177, so we would need folds around 2/3 of the time in order to break even with a jam.

Unless these guys are getting pretty out of line with their cold 3b and cold 4bs it should be a clear fold, but I'm also assuming a passive, weak player pool at the casino.

That said if the 4 bettor is going crazy with stuff like AQo then this feels like a hand in your UTG range that you can bluff jam assuming you can get at least one fold, preferably from the MP player, but I didn't look too closely at that spot.
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Old 07-25-2018, 11:21 PM   #14
dannyboy6292
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Re: 5/10 NL - Interesting Spot - Thoughts?

Why not call and see a flop? Why is it a must jam? You know ur getting called. Why not smooth and see what the flop brings?
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Old 07-26-2018, 03:46 AM   #15
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Re: 5/10 NL - Interesting Spot - Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by dannyboy6292 View Post
Why not call and see a flop? Why is it a must jam? You know ur getting called. Why not smooth and see what the flop brings?
Just calling is very bad. Shove or fold thats all.
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Old 07-26-2018, 10:29 AM   #16
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Re: 5/10 NL - Interesting Spot - Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by ka1z0ku View Post
Just calling is very bad. Shove or fold thats all.
Who says? There's a contingent that says that calling in that spot is ok. AK suited in that spot is a hand where I would love to see the flop. You are blocking AA and KK. You got diamonds, most likely overs and Broadway. Might be ahead without connecting. Why fold that equity?
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Old 07-26-2018, 10:41 AM   #17
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Re: 5/10 NL - Interesting Spot - Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by dannyboy6292 View Post
Why not call and see a flop? Why is it a must jam? You know ur getting called. Why not smooth and see what the flop brings?
Here's a hint: you're not closing the action.

What grant2 said. Easy fold vs unknowns.
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Old 07-26-2018, 10:46 AM   #18
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Re: 5/10 NL - Interesting Spot - Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by dannyboy6292 View Post
Who says? There's a contingent that says that calling in that spot is ok. AK suited in that spot is a hand where I would love to see the flop. You are blocking AA and KK. You got diamonds, most likely overs and Broadway. Might be ahead without connecting. Why fold that equity?
Then you shove if you feel it that way. It's not more about folding which is fine if you think villain doesnt **** around much but just calling is rubbish. Also need to consider stack size I would consider to only call if we were both very deep. $1500 at 5/10 is a buyin only so I would shove and forget if villains shows AA.
If villain has KK you still have 35% equity

I would never just call in any other spot since you'll never get paid if you flop a A vs KK or any lower pairs and you really want to see 5 cards with AKs. Also believe it or not you have fold equity in case villain has QQ or anything else. 5/10 at my casino a 4bet for $300 is standard with KQs lol
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Old 07-26-2018, 10:48 AM   #19
ka1z0ku
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Re: 5/10 NL - Interesting Spot - Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by RichGangi View Post
Here's a hint: you're not closing the action.

What grant2 said. Easy fold vs unknowns.
Being a reg from a not so big card room I find easy shove vs unknowns lol
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Old 07-26-2018, 10:57 AM   #20
dannyboy6292
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Re: 5/10 NL - Interesting Spot - Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by ka1z0ku View Post
Then you shove if you feel it that way. It's not more about folding which is fine if you think villain doesnt **** around much but just calling is rubbish. Also need to consider stack size I would consider to only call if we were both very deep. $1500 at 5/10 is a buyin only so I would shove and forget if villains shows AA.
If villain has KK you still have 35% equity

I would never just call in any other spot since you'll never get paid if you flop a A vs KK or any lower pairs and you really want to see 5 cards with AKs. Also believe it or not you have fold equity in case villain has QQ or anything else. 5/10 at my casino a 4bet for $300 is standard with KQs lol
I was missing stack size. Agree. 300 for 2000 meh. If they/we are at 400-500bb's deep, I prolly just flat. I would shove most likely with the stack sizes. I do find I get paid more in multi-way pots long term with AK suited vs isolating.
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Old 07-27-2018, 05:47 AM   #21
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Re: 5/10 NL - Interesting Spot - Thoughts?

I'm 5bet jamming here. Hopefully I can get the other guys to fold all their QQ/AK (15 combos), but if they happen to show up with KK/AA (6 combos) then bad luck, it happens. It's only 75bbs.
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Old 07-28-2018, 07:05 PM   #22
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Re: 5/10 NL - Interesting Spot - Thoughts?

Depends on a bit on the strength of the game IMO. If this is a tougher 5/10 game with a lot of regs, I think it's a clear fold.

If we're in a softer game or have any reads that the cold 4-bettor might be a fish, I think we jam.
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Old 07-29-2018, 07:48 AM   #23
Sirrybob
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Re: 5/10 NL - Interesting Spot - Thoughts?

It's important to seperate theory from practice in spots like this.
In theory - your hand is strong enough to be putting more money in (you can see this by looking at multiway preflop simulations) - mostly by shoving.

In practice... 1000nl games usually play with people coldcalling 3bets, and cold4bets are really nutted most of the time. I would fold both KK and AKs in your spot and feel fairly happy about it - the hands are marginal get ins in theory, and probably terrible in practice.
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Old 07-29-2018, 03:13 PM   #24
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Re: 5/10 NL - Interesting Spot - Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Sirrybob View Post
It's important to seperate theory from practice in spots like this.
In theory - your hand is strong enough to be putting more money in (you can see this by looking at multiway preflop simulations) - mostly by shoving.

In practice... 1000nl games usually play with people coldcalling 3bets, and cold4bets are really nutted most of the time. I would fold both KK and AKs in your spot and feel fairly happy about it - the hands are marginal get ins in theory, and probably terrible in practice.
Folding KK is nutty here.
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Old 07-30-2018, 05:46 AM   #25
apricotjello
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Re: 5/10 NL - Interesting Spot - Thoughts?

AKs seems like the absolute nut hand if we’re ever going to shove hands that aren’t AA

other poster might be taking KK a bit far by calling it an easy fold, but if we perceive ranges to be so tight that AKs is a fold then we also have to consider how that affects KK in that range
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