Live 5/10 NL Bellagio

V1 = Middle Aged Rec male who is about 10 rum and Cokes deep/ opening 5-7X EP with off suit middling cards and any Paint... calling down 1.5x river bets with mid pair no kicker and chasing draws for whatever price the raiser wants to charge essentially THE SPOT in the game. More or less a guy just enjoying himself on vacation and having a blast doing so over drinks and some poker

V 2 = 60+ year old Asain Male...Seems somewhat capable but is 3 betting V 1 relentlessly with all Broadway combos and suited Ace highs in the first 3 hours I have been playing... clearly I have picked up on this

The Hand: LJ opens to 40... V1 3 bets to $130 from
CO.... Hero on Button looks down at 7s 7c.... and flat the $130 (clearly capping our range but with V2 left to act in the BB and his 3 bet frequency to V1 opens I am comfortable with flatting and re-assessing should V2 4 bet). V2 in BB Tanks for 30 seconds and puts in a 4 bet to $310.... V1 folds and action back on me... my effective stack after cold calling with 77 is still $1400 and V2 has me covered...

My Thought Line: V2 is 3 betting V1 at a 60% + Frequency... when I just flat the button for $130 it clearly appears that My range is capped (which it happens to be) but given table flow and dynamics and the fact that i am viewed as a capable TAG during this particular session... there is now $610 in the middle and V2 is capable enough to know I've picked up on his 3 betting frequency can we ever Rip over the top with a backraise for $1400 and hope to scoop preflop or are we just burning money? I do think with my image V2 can fold all middling pairs he chooses to 4 bet squeeze and even 10s-JJs are put in a tough spot... also V2 folds 90% of suited Ace combos with the exception of AK suited and MAYBE AQ suited at a major stretch we also know he is folding pretty much all suited Broadway's.....As Hero what is your play?

I don't like the call only because how are you going to play the flop? I think putting people on ranges even donks can get you into trouble because they all wake up with aces kings etc.

I either go all in or fold. I dont want to play post flop.

If hes got an overpair your dead anyways. At least if you jam he can dump big aces...

My 2

I would say a better play is a 4 bet with the intention of folding to a shove from V1. Going from 13 BB to 140 BB's is a bit extreme, and quite frankly, it looks like you're trying to buy the pot. You also have the major problem that when you're called by a weaker hand, you're still only 50% to win since 66-22 would be insane to call here, and when you're called by a stronger hand you're 20%. Sure, you get his his 88-99 to fold, but, especially from V1 I don't know that he's folding 10 or JJ in this spot. He's drunk, and recreational. An opponnent that's folding to a 1400 dollar bet is probably folding to a 450 bet in this spot as well, and at least with the smaller bet you can get away when V1 shoves. He may be opening super light, but it doesn't mean he's shoving super light.

EDIT: I meant this as your first play, I also agree the flat is terrible.

Jam

I actually think 4 betting V1 from the button is also a viable option because as you stated this can deter V2 from 4 betting out of the SB and I can also scoop pre-flop if we get folds and we can comfortably fold to a 5 bet.

That being said considering this was not the line Hero took and given the game flow and dynamic is flatting for $130 which represents 9% of Hero's effective stack in position on the button versus what is a perceived light open from V1 a drunk rec spew with V2 still left to act in the BB that bad? The way Hero viewed this was that if V2 just flats chances are EP flats as well for 4/1 on his money and Hero can set mine while already getting 4/1 preflop with implied odds of stacking one of the three remaining opponents post flop when flopping sets in this exact spot.

But Hero is always thinking so plan B in the back of Hero's mind is if V2 decides to 4 bet from the BB and it folds to Hero on Button well then its clearly a ship or fold depending on sizing V2 chooses to 4 bet to because we would NEVER be flatting a 4 bet from the button with 7s given this action or any action for that matter really.

The wildcard in this entire HH is V1 everyone in the entire game knows he is the spot in the game. As described previously when Hero Flats button for $130 and V2 4 bets to $310 it generally looks weak in my opinion to back raise 5 bet jam my $1400 effective but given the dead money in the pot, my image as a TAG and the fact V2 has been relentlessly raising V2 opens pre-flop do we see merit in Ripping it in?

Once I get a few more responses ill complete the hand history

Hero did not Flat the $310... Do you dislike the $130 flat pre-flop? If so see previous post to see Hero's thought process given opponents and dynamics of this particular game/situation then maybe you'll still either dislike it or understand what Hero was thinking

are you ever flatting AK or QQ+? If no, why would v2 fold JJ or AQ to a jam? The only better hands he's folding are 88, 99 and possssibly TT. I think he's more inclined to play suited broadways than face the risk of 4bet folding. So really he may have AJo, ATo, or KQo. His 4b fold range of hands he beats you with is very small. Frankly if you're thinking of 5b jamming, I'd prefer to flat and get it in on non-ace boards.

During a standard session No I am never flatting QQ+ or AK on the button here but in this particular game I would actually consider it so as though if V2 continues his relentless trend of applying pressure and putting in preflop 3bets in this case a 4bet to V1 opens I can then comfortably 5bet the button with that range and know that I am ahead of V2 range. IMO flatting $310 preflop is really bad... what board textures that we don't make sets on can we really continue on post flop? We need the miracle 4x 5x 6x and even then if v2 has 8s-JJ he calls off post flop. I don't like any version of Hero flatting the $310 preflop to V2 4 bet. As far as flatting $310 pre and GII in non-Ace High flops there are still so many non-ace high flop runouts that would be burning money to ship... and Specifically King high, Q high runouts and the likes of 10x Jx X runouts in which we can run into hands that have lots of equity like KQ suited JQ suited 10 10 JJ etc... personally hero is shipping $1400 in the middle Pre-flop or folding not fond of flatting the $310 with 77 at all and not a play Hero would personally make

This is actually a fair point, and should certianly be considered but if you're gonna fold most flops keep in mind you only have a 12% chance to cath your set.

As far as a backraise shove, well I don't know that it looks weak, in fact to me if looks super strong. It looks like slowplayed aces. The issue however is a) that V1 is drunk AND rec so he may make a crying call anyway, and b) you don't have aces . But seriously, I think i misunderstood the question the first time, I thought we were discussing heroes initial action. Calling a 4 bet from V1 at this time is super passive, so yeah either shove if you think it'll scoop or fold. After a 4 bet from V1 however, i'd be a little iffy shoving here, once again, since he's drunk and drunk players sometimes don't give a crap about throwing money in the middle.

It was V2 the middle aged man who seemed somewhat capable who ended up 4 betting to $310 out of the BB.EP and Drunk V1 who initially 3 bet to $130 both fold and it was back to Hero on Button with $1400 left behind.... No need to worry about Drunk Rec calling off light because he already folded and I'm last to act on button.

Given V2 description I’m convinced jamming is the best play here. I think V2 folds a LOT here given your TAG style. Of course, some of the time when he snaps it off you’re going to be crushed, but he also sounds like the kind of player that can level himself into making a call with AJo or KQs once in a while and I think those combined with the pots you drag when V2 folds make this, to me, a jam in a close spot.

What is your flAt range here preflop? Feel like it turns your hand a bit face up

Flatting Range when facing V2 4 bet to $310 or Flatting Range to V1 3 bet to $130?

I am usually against cold calling, in this spot I think it is justifiable. Based on your description of V2 I think this is a great jam. If he is 3-betting relentlessly against V1 with broadway hands he probably has a wide 4-bet range against him as well.

This jam is a really good spot because his range is probably 50%ish if he calls everything, maybe even a bit better than 50%, but you'll scoop up dead money so much that it is a great spot for a 5-bet jam.

Villain may or may not fold a higher pair, but he definitely isn't calling with his suited Ax hands and broadway hands. You kind of answer your own question in the description.

I think of it kind of like this. In HU SNGs. I may ship all-in with Ax at 14BBs which I wouldn't do with JJ+, but my opponent's range is wide enough that he can't really do anything about it to exploit it.


The only thing to be concerned about in this spot is if calling will affect V2's 4-betting. He may be alarmed by your call or he may be trying to get V1 so bad that he is ignoring you. Do you think your call will affect V2's 4-betting in a significant way? If the answer is yes, then maybe reconsider. If the answer is no, then get that money!

Overall, I think 5-bet jamming is likely the best option here.

My flatting range facing a 3bet is clearly different then when facing a 4bet but for the sake of this particular hand and opponents the following would be my flatting ranges.

My 3 bet flatting Range in this particular pot will vary from standard due to game dynamics and V1 wide open frequency... I am flatting 22-88, all middling suited connectors, Jx10x, KxQx, JxKx, and suited Ace wheel draws not including A5 suited which I would be 4 betting myself in this spot most likely.

As far as my 4 bet flatting range to V2 (BB) 4 bet to $310... It is VERY narrow with the dynamics in this particular game... AxKx is a hand i would merge here and shove most likely at a higher frequency but I think flatting to V2 4bet to keep Ace high hands in villains range also has merit the issue is if we see a low dry flop and face a flop shove we do not realize our equity so i am most likely shoving AxKx in this spot. My standard would be to 4bet AxKx off myself from the button after the initial V1 open to $130 but considering I had seen V1 open lots of Ax Ragx from EP in the previous 3 hours this would be a VERY rare scenario i would consider flatting V1 pre-flop 3 bet with AxKx in hopes of V2 4 betting so that we can feel pretty comfortable 5 bet shoving if we get folds back to me on the button. But that was not the particular situation so its not worth straying to far from what actually occurred. In Short given the action in this particular hand Hero has very few combos if any in his 4 bet flatting range when the BB 4 bets to $310 and given Hero has 7x7x no doubt in Hero's mind its a shove or fold flatting 7x7x here would just be beyond terrible.

This is a pretty easy backraise shove.

So I know that V1 is opening super wide, but does that mean he's 3betting super wide? Most loose fish like this that I play against love to play lots of hands but usually default to flatting over 3betting with all but premium hands. So I'm not convinced that V1's range is wide enough to justify cold-calling with 77 here.

Now, if we know that V1 also 3bets super wide with almost any 2 cards, then I strong prefer to 4bet/gii against him.

As played, similarly, just because V2 has a wide 3bet range doesn't mean he has a wide 4bet range. I guess a backraise shove looks super strong, so I get it in theory, but it all breaks down if V2 has QQ+/AK+ here 80% of the time.

Thank you for knowing the different between loose and lose- you are good in my book.

How about the rest of the hand, OP?

call and reassess on flop. No reason to jam pre at all imo, you have position.

Why? What's calling you? At best you're racing AK.

Respectfully knowing that the two guys are capable of anything, you have to figure in order to win this hand you have to go to showdown. Are you really wanting to put it all in with a pair of 7's?

In these situations, I like to wait for a better time. I would fold my 130 at that point and move on.

I understand your thought process and I can see where you were going, I just dont like 7s there...

This is how I feel, just said more articulately.

Ohh stop it!

Going to disclose the rest of the hand in a couple days there are still some posts and opinions floating around so I'll give it a couple days and then recap the rest of the hand and Hero's action.