Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >


Medium-High Stakes PL/NL Discussions about medium-high stakes pot-limit and no-limit hold'em (2-4 and up)

Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-31-2017, 02:14 PM   #1
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 73
4-Bet pot

$2/$5 NL zoom (6 max)

Hero has $823 in SB with K♣️Q♠️
UTG opens to $12.50 with $550
UTG+1 reraises to $42.50 with $625
Folded to hero who 4 bets to $122.50 (I don't typically 4-bet here maybe only 10% of the time so not looking for comments on pre-flop)
UTG folds
UTG+1 calls $80 more.

Flop (Pot $262.50)
Hero bets $88.50
UTG+1 reraises to $225.50

How often is villain raising AA, AK, 1010, or flush draws. Villain was TAG but not a big sample size.
Brogias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2017, 05:41 PM   #2
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 414
Re: 4-Bet pot

Any reads on either villain? X/c flop seems prudent.
Harry155 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2017, 08:03 PM   #3
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 73
Re: 4-Bet pot

Originally Posted by Harry155 View Post
Any reads on either villain? X/c flop seems prudent.
Very limited hands but seemed TAG during those hands
Brogias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2017, 05:44 AM   #4
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 414
Re: 4-Bet pot

I won't go on about it but this 4 bet against TAG players you have no reads on really is asking for trouble.

Definitely not cbetting... very hard to get value from worse, he could even make a tight fold with QQ or JJ, and he'll often flat your 4bet with AA and KK as well as TT and AK.

I'm guessing he considers your range to be tighter than it is with AA/KK/AK as your value hands here. If he's happy raising into that range on this flop then KQ doesn't look in great shape. It's hard to be thrilled about any turn card either apart from maybe a king. For these reasons I quite like a fold here but I guess a call is standard.
Harry155 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2017, 03:51 PM   #5
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,537
Re: 4-Bet pot

Roughly you need to have 137/713.5 = .192*100 = 19.2% equity to call here without even considering the fact there is still money behind and at least 1 more street of betting to continue.

Villain's value combos are anywhere from 10-18 depending on if he flats all AA,KK,TT and AK here preflop.

If we assume things on the low side here with 10 value combos we can roughly estimate the number of bluff combos needed to give us 19.2% equity:

.192 <= X/(X+10)
1.92 <= .808*X
2.32 <= X (note 2.32 is rounded)

So if villain has roughly 3 or more bluffs with 0 equity you can profitably call here. With the K of the suit on board and the 4 bet preflop from these positions I doubt villain ever has enough bluffs to call here even if villain had pure bluffs with no equity, which is unlikely.

Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk
just_grindin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2017, 05:36 PM   #6
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 6
Re: 4-Bet pot

You're beat here more often than not. Seems like you were trapped. He has way less combos of flush draws then hands that have you beat.
brettpoker87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2017, 01:04 PM   #7
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,101
Re: 4-Bet pot

Originally Posted by Brogias View Post
I don't typically 4-bet here maybe only 10% of the time
Only? That is way too frequently..
Ojune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2017, 03:16 AM   #8
outdonked's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 547
Re: 4-Bet pot

Ha ..? ... “Oh, you mean my KQo it's no good? ...,Phew !” - (lol)

You don't play like a 2/5 game you play like 50/100 PokerStars ZOOM with "play money" - Now, very serious,.. are you playing the ZOOM NL at PokerStars? - If you come into our 5/10 NL 6max in Vegas, we eat you alive. Honest to God..,

I have a question for you. What do you do for a living that lets you play like this at these stakes? You play with fish yet still somehow find a way to give them your chips. If you want to open loose, you need to learn to let it go someone else shows strength before you get your stack in. No idea what you are thinking, prob something along the lines of "I've come this far in a hand, gotta call now" or "I had such a good hand ( lol ) can't believe I'm beat here. Bet, calling it off is absolutely horrible at this point.

If you cannot beat 2/5 when you get all the information in front of your eyes, you got a problem. I mean, KQo is one of the worse hands to 4! - What you think UTG+1 when he 3! with you and more players behind? - How about when the action goes around back to UTG and UTG+1. What you think, is UTG+1 folding after his 3! .because your 4!.? - How the hell is he folding if he's in a very EP 3!-bettor? - An what significance has your c-bet OTF of $88 into $262 ...., It doesn't even feel like poker ...

Last edited by outdonked; 09-10-2017 at 03:35 AM.
outdonked is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2017, 12:10 PM   #9
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: check/call in the dark
Posts: 391
Re: 4-Bet pot

fold pre
girlieburger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2017, 04:03 AM   #10
old hand
TheGodson's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Merica!
Posts: 1,871
Re: 4-Bet pot

Looks like you have to call after you bet. He could have a flush draw. I don't like the way this hand was played though. On the flop, a check is better. In a 4-bet pot your hand strength is actually medium strength and best used as a bluff catcher. It probably is only strong enough to call one bet. Any additional bets and you're better off folding.

Don't mind outdonked for trying to pat himself on the back with his "superior" poker knowledge. He's probably just a miserable shmuck who makes a mediocre living at poker, but never amassed the success that he wished he had. He's just blowing off steam trying to rip you down. He's the kind of person that likes to make fun of other people for being stupid so he can feel less stupid himself.

Chances are you are leaking big time if you are cold 4-betting 10% of the time. Unless your opponents aren't paying attention, they are going to adjust and exploit you.
TheGodson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2017, 11:26 AM   #11
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 23
Re: 4-Bet pot

Fold pre. I don't like K-Qo as a cold 4-bet bluff even against button 3-bets. And this is UTG +1 who put in the three-bet! It puts you in terrible spots like this where you see an above average flop and are still in a tough spot. And, as mentioned above, 10% is way too high with this hand; suited hands are going to play better against a call.

This is clear fold on the flop IMO. Your cold four-betting range should be pretty small, and your c-betting percentage should certainly be under 50% GTO. So K-Qo falls so low in your range that you have to fold to the raise. I prefer to x/c this hand on the flop.
statoverflow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2017, 03:16 PM   #12
Carpal \'Tunnel
ddubois's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Coconut Creek, FL
Posts: 7,693
Re: 4-Bet pot

If people want to fold this hand pre-flop, that's fine and standard. But what is your bluff 4 bet range? There is a reasonable argument here that this is a good bluffing hand for its card removal effects -- opponents will have less KK,QQ,AK,AQ hands than they would if you chose, for instance, 78s or A5s. Maybe you only have AK,QQ+, and fold everything else? If that's true, then I would disagree, you've got to have ~some~ bluffs.
For me personally, I would probably not have ten percent of KQo. I might instead have twenty percent of my AQs/KQs, but mathematically, this is a similar number of combos.

All that said, if OP is doing it 10% of the time, with the top 10% of his "standard fold" hands, (i.e. 10% of the time with any suited broadways, 77-JJ, AT-AQ, KQ) then that's WAY too often.

On the flop I look to check/call and re-evaluate. Your hand to an observer looks like AK or better, and you have worse than that. Therefore you don't want to get stacks in, nor play for multiple streets of value. You want to play in such a way to get one street of value from JJ or ATs, or to induce a bluff. You don't accomplish those things by taking lines that suggest or impose maximum pressure.
ddubois is offline   Reply With Quote


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:51 PM.

Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online