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Old 09-16-2017, 03:20 AM   #1
edison1093
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3-Bet pot with TT

It was a loose table,
Stakes : 5/10 with ante 2
7 players

Hero(MP) > 2300
UTG ~ 1400

----Preflop-----
UTG raise 40
Hero(MP) hold TT 3-Bet 94
3 flods
SB call
BB fold
UTG call
Pot $306

----Flop------
[7d6dQs]
SB check
UTG check
Hero(MP) C-bet 153 (50% pot)
SB call
UTG fold
Pot $612

----Turn-----
[7d6dQs][5c]
SB check
Hero(MP) check
Pot $612

----River-----
[7d6dQs][5c][9s]
SB bet 306 (50% pot)
Hero ?


I think the first mistake is preflop 3-Bet size, maybe 120~130 is batter? or the 3-Bet size is okay in this situation?

On the flop SB check and call my 50% pot bet, I think he may have some flush draw or straight draw.

On the Turn, there is a straight if he hold something like 89s. he check, and I also check, I want to show down and see what he have

But he bet 1/2 pot on the river, if he hold AA, KK maybe 4-Bet on the preflop. And I think AQs like to be show down.

There are some chance he hold flush draw and bluff here.

How should I think in this situation, very thanks.
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Old 09-16-2017, 05:19 AM   #2
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Re: 3-Bet pot with TT

Vs an UTG raise I generally don't have a 3 bet range unless I'm in the blinds.
Any reads/tendencies on villain would be huge in spot like this.

As played and just assuming he's avg player I call expecting to see a Q a lot. But on balance your range looks like AK, JJ/TT so I call as there should be enough bluffs there. Jam seems enticing as I don't think he has very many 8s, but if he's a thinking player on even a basic level he should know I don't have many either so I won't do this.
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Old 09-17-2017, 05:23 PM   #3
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Re: 3-Bet pot with TT

3-bet size should be a bit larger, I agree. With this sizing, UTG should never be folding if it folds back to him. A typical UTG range here has mid+ pocket pairs, suited connectors, suited Broadways, and strong aces.

I don't really like c-betting in this spot. You're kind of just hoping he folds and the only card that helps you out is a T on the turn, which may be an expensive card if it is Td. As stands, this bloats the pot with a marginal hand.

Turn check is standard.

On river, T-T is a bluffcatcher here, and it's probably the worst one you have in this spot. This is a fold I think, but you can consider a call if you don't have the ten of diamonds in your hand because you want him to be bluffing with a busted FD
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Old 09-26-2017, 12:56 AM   #4
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Re: 3-Bet pot with TT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Spyutastic View Post
Vs an UTG raise I generally don't have a 3 bet range unless I'm in the blinds.

Any reads/tendencies on villain would be huge in spot like this.



As played and just assuming he's avg player I call expecting to see a Q a lot. But on balance your range looks like AK, JJ/TT so I call as there should be enough bluffs there. Jam seems enticing as I don't think he has very many 8s, but if he's a thinking player on even a basic level he should know I don't have many either so I won't do this.


Thank you for your reply.
I am wondering that should I 3-Bet more for value or bluff when I am OOP.
The first thing is that if I am OOP and holding something like AJo, KQo v.s. UTG’s open, it very hard to do something on the flop. Should I use these hand for bluff?
or more polarized, use QQ+,AKs and something like 67s, 9Ts ?
Which is better when I am OOP


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Old 09-26-2017, 09:37 AM   #5
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Re: 3-Bet pot with TT

Quote:
Originally Posted by statoverflow View Post
3-bet size should be a bit larger, I agree. With this sizing, UTG should never be folding if it folds back to him. A typical UTG range here has mid+ pocket pairs, suited connectors, suited Broadways, and strong aces.

I don't really like c-betting in this spot. You're kind of just hoping he folds and the only card that helps you out is a T on the turn, which may be an expensive card if it is Td. As stands, this bloats the pot with a marginal hand.

Turn check is standard.

On river, T-T is a bluffcatcher here, and it's probably the worst one you have in this spot. This is a fold I think, but you can consider a call if you don't have the ten of diamonds in your hand because you want him to be bluffing with a busted FD


Thanks 3-Bet pot with TT
I don’t remember whether I call or fold, I think maybe call/fold is 50/50 in this situation.
I think Cbet on the flop is a mistake, and I want to discuss that if I check on the flop, and opponent bet on the turn, should I raise or fold, if he got AQ, I think he would donk on the flop, not just check.


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Old 09-26-2017, 03:50 PM   #6
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Re: 3-Bet pot with TT

Quote:
Originally Posted by edison1093 View Post
Thank you for your reply.
I am wondering that should I 3-Bet more for value or bluff when I am OOP.
The first thing is that if I am OOP and holding something like AJo, KQo v.s. UTG’s open, it very hard to do something on the flop. Should I use these hand for bluff?
or more polarized, use QQ+,AKs and something like 67s, 9Ts ?
Which is better when I am OOP


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Obviously with player specifics and game flow considerations aside, generally speaking I'd keep my 3 bet from OOP polarized or else you will have too many bluffs.
So most of it will be value.
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Old 09-27-2017, 10:34 PM   #7
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Re: 3-Bet pot with TT

How loose is SB?
Flop bet seems really bad against a normal preflop range of SB

River seems like super easy fold as there is nothing SB can bluff with
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Old 09-27-2017, 10:35 PM   #8
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Re: 3-Bet pot with TT

You should obviously 3bet strong hands at a loose table. Calling JJ+/AK pre here would be losing tons of value. If they are loose enough where you value bet TT here on the flop 3way you should probably 3bet 99/AQ/ATs here too.
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Old 09-27-2017, 10:57 PM   #9
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3-Bet pot with TT

Quote:
Originally Posted by lnternet View Post
How loose is SB?
Flop bet seems really bad against a normal preflop range of SB

River seems like super easy fold as there is nothing SB can bluff with


Recently I play in a club, stake is 5/10/(2), 80% of players have VPIP/PFR like 65/6, and always calling my 4bb preflop raise (where I am at UTG or UTG+1), therefore sometimes I feel confusing to read the range.
By the way they only 3-Bet AA, KK. most of them have less then 1% 3-Bet%
The players there don’t like to fold when there are at SB or BB

I also play Pokerstars 0.5/1 or 1/2 cash game, I think the poker ability in the club like Pokerstars NL2 3-Bet pot with TT3-Bet pot with TT


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Old 09-28-2017, 05:43 AM   #10
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Re: 3-Bet pot with TT

Some before me have said betting flop here is a mistake. I would agree under the fact that UTG is the only one in the hand. This is not the case though since SB is in the hand. Most of the time overcallers in 3-bet pots are less experienced players with weaker holdings. I think it is reasonable to protect your hand by betting this flop. You are also in position making it fairly safe. If you don't have a T you should be more inclined to bet.

The check on the turn is good.

On the river you need to call though. It is reasonable for a player to take a stab here and pick up the pot. He could have a busted flush or even A9. You probably are beat, but you only need to win more than 1/4 of the time.

For what it is worth, I would not 3-bet TT vs. an EP opener especially if you are in an earlier position yourself. It opens you up to a lot of ugly situations.
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Old 09-28-2017, 02:58 PM   #11
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Re: 3-Bet pot with TT

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGodson View Post
Some before me have said betting flop here is a mistake. I would agree under the fact that UTG is the only one in the hand. This is not the case though since SB is in the hand. Most of the time overcallers in 3-bet pots are less experienced players with weaker holdings. I think it is reasonable to protect your hand by betting this flop. You are also in position making it fairly safe. If you don't have a T you should be more inclined to bet.

The check on the turn is good.

On the river you need to call though. It is reasonable for a player to take a stab here and pick up the pot. He could have a busted flush or even A9. You probably are beat, but you only need to win more than 1/4 of the time.

For what it is worth, I would not 3-bet TT vs. an EP opener especially if you are in an earlier position yourself. It opens you up to a lot of ugly situations.
How does V ever have A9 here
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Old 09-28-2017, 06:00 PM   #12
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Re: 3-Bet pot with TT

Quote:
Originally Posted by edison1093 View Post
Recently I play in a club, stake is 5/10/(2), 80% of players have VPIP/PFR like 65/6, and always calling my 4bb preflop raise (where I am at UTG or UTG+1), therefore sometimes I feel confusing to read the range.
By the way they only 3-Bet AA, KK. most of them have less then 1% 3-Bet%
The players there don’t like to fold when there are at SB or BB

I also play Pokerstars 0.5/1 or 1/2 cash game, I think the poker ability in the club like Pokerstars NL2 3-Bet pot with TT3-Bet pot with TT

NL2 on PokerStars is way tougher than this. NL2 has solid regs, and has fish of varying styles and knowledge. It's way more difficult to beat than a game of mostly fish with the same style.


If they always call 4bb preflop, it means you should never raise weak hands (22, 54s, A2s are not open raises in early), and you should raise bigger with strong hands (5, 6, 10, or even 20bb), until you find a price point where you get max value (a measure of roughly how often they call times how much you raised)


I think this forum will not offer good advice on how to play in such a game. Many players here have an online reg-vs-reg mindset, they don't consider open limping or going 10bb open, but those are both max-EV strategies in the game you describe.
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Old 09-28-2017, 09:31 PM   #13
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3-Bet pot with TT

Quote:
Originally Posted by lnternet View Post
NL2 on PokerStars is way tougher than this. NL2 has solid regs, and has fish of varying styles and knowledge. It's way more difficult to beat than a game of mostly fish with the same style.


If they always call 4bb preflop, it means you should never raise weak hands (22, 54s, A2s are not open raises in early), and you should raise bigger with strong hands (5, 6, 10, or even 20bb), until you find a price point where you get max value (a measure of roughly how often they call times how much you raised)


I think this forum will not offer good advice on how to play in such a game. Many players here have an online reg-vs-reg mindset, they don't consider open limping or going 10bb open, but those are both max-EV strategies in the game you describe.




3-Bet pot with TT They have two style, one have VPIP/PFR ~ 55/4, the other is super-aggressive VPIP/PFR ~75/30. (This game is “Full Ring”, not 6-max)

This is the best private club I have ever seen in my poker career.

I still remember that there was a limper in early position, I hold KK at CO, I raise 6bb. The limper 3-bet my raise, he’s 3-bet% is 0.5%, I fold my KK immediately, in the end he showed AA. (What the funny thing is that even he 3-bet AA, there were still 3 players in this pot)3-Bet pot with TT3-Bet pot with TT

This situation would never happen when I play on PS NL200. (I think even NL2 would never seen this situation)


I am wondering that, how many BB should I buy-in in this club? I usually buy-in 250bb, lots of fish buy-in 200bb.

Because the game includes ante, I think I need to buy-in more than usual.

Should I play more tight (my VPIP/PFR is 30/24 now)? But the game includes antes.

Last edited by edison1093; 09-28-2017 at 09:38 PM.
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Old 09-28-2017, 11:18 PM   #14
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Re: 3-Bet pot with TT

Quote:
Originally Posted by lnternet View Post
NL2 on PokerStars is way tougher than this. NL2 has solid regs, and has fish of varying styles and knowledge. It's way more difficult to beat than a game of mostly fish with the same style.


If they always call 4bb preflop, it means you should never raise weak hands (22, 54s, A2s are not open raises in early), and you should raise bigger with strong hands (5, 6, 10, or even 20bb), until you find a price point where you get max value (a measure of roughly how often they call times how much you raised)


I think this forum will not offer good advice on how to play in such a game. Many players here have an online reg-vs-reg mindset, they don't consider open limping or going 10bb open, but those are both max-EV strategies in the game you describe.



Now I find that, the basic open is 7bb, and add 1bb/limper. Therefore I usually raise 100~120 at 5/10(2) stake 3-Bet pot with TT
Should I use this strategy to play this game?
I am confused..... but this game is profitable



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Old 09-28-2017, 11:32 PM   #15
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Re: 3-Bet pot with TT

Quote:
I am wondering that, how many BB should I buy-in in this club? I usually buy-in 250bb, lots of fish buy-in 200bb.
With fish you generally want to cover everyone. So if they buy in with 200bb, it's likely the bigger stacks are 400bb+, so you want to buy in at least that much.

Quote:
Should I play more tight (my VPIP/PFR is 30/24 now)? But the game includes antes.

Now I find that, the basic open is 7bb, and add 1bb/limper. Therefore I usually raise 100~120 at 5/10(2) stake
I think you need to view it a lot more situational and less global.

In some spots, you need to be very tight:
Open raises in early, forget raising anything speculative, and raise big, 7bb sounds ok

In some spots you you need to be very loose:
3 people limp, you are on CO/BU, with 200bb+ stacks, you can limp behind any nut-potential hand like 54o

For raise sizing, you should absolutely size by hand strength.

You have AK in early position, maybe raise 10bb, as that hand is most powerful with 1-2 opponents and shorter SPR where you can play top pair hard. You have 77 early position, maybe raise 3bb, as that hand doesn't care too much how many people come in and wants a smaller preflop raise to lose less without set but can still win a stack with a set.


You're allowed to play very creatively with these guys. When you raise different sizes with different hands it might seem obvious to you what's going on. But it won't be obvious to them. And even if they notice, they have no idea what to do about it. (In any case you can balance dual sizing too, if you really need to)
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Old 09-29-2017, 03:04 AM   #16
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Diamond Re: 3-Bet pot with TT

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Originally Posted by blakeatron View Post
How does V ever have A9 here
He wont have A9. I noticed it after the fact, but a few minutes had passed and I didn't want to look uncool and edit my post and have the thing at the bottom telling everyone I edited my post. So I left it there and hoped nobody would notice it.

88 seems fairly reasonable in its place though. Also, if a fish is being fishy and trying to be cool he could have A9, but yeah probably not.
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Old 09-29-2017, 08:35 AM   #17
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Re: 3-Bet pot with TT

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGodson View Post
Some before me have said betting flop here is a mistake. I would agree under the fact that UTG is the only one in the hand. This is not the case though since SB is in the hand. Most of the time overcallers in 3-bet pots are less experienced players with weaker holdings. I think it is reasonable to protect your hand by betting this flop. You are also in position making it fairly safe. If you don't have a T you should be more inclined to bet.

The check on the turn is good.

On the river you need to call though. It is reasonable for a player to take a stab here and pick up the pot. He could have a busted flush or even A9. You probably are beat, but you only need to win more than 1/4 of the time.

For what it is worth, I would not 3-bet TT vs. an EP opener especially if you are in an earlier position yourself. It opens you up to a lot of ugly situations.
Yeah, Thanks for your suggest.

How would you doing if you hold something like 99,TT, JJ at BTN or CO v.s. UTG's open? Maybe calling is the batter solution.
I know that if I hold TT, JJ at the Blinds I would usually 3-Bet the raiser from late position.

I think that 88 is in his range, actually I fold this hand, so I have no idea what he had.
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Old 09-29-2017, 07:06 PM   #18
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Re: 3-Bet pot with TT

On a total side note - and nothing to do with the actual hand - how are you able to bet $94? I've never even been in a 5/T game that has $1 chips. The times I did play 5/T it was all reds - $5 - Greens - $25 - Blacks - $100 - and orange - $1000

Was this hand online or something and if so, why not use a converter???

Also why in the world would you bet $94 instead of $90 or $100??? or $95??? That is just so annoying for the dealer.

I guess with ante's I can understand the fact for $1 chips - but still why not just bet in multiples of $5 or $10???
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Old 09-29-2017, 07:16 PM   #19
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Re: 3-Bet pot with TT

Loose table, I prefer a c-bet on the flop here. Not sure why people disagree. If you have a table of bad players, you'll have a ton of second best hands that will call here, even MW. It's a pure value bet.

As played, river is a fold. Not enough bluffs in opponents range to justify a call here.
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Old 09-30-2017, 01:49 AM   #20
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Diamond Re: 3-Bet pot with TT

Quote:
Originally Posted by edison1093 View Post
Yeah, Thanks for your suggest.

How would you doing if you hold something like 99,TT, JJ at BTN or CO v.s. UTG's open? Maybe calling is the batter solution.
I know that if I hold TT, JJ at the Blinds I would usually 3-Bet the raiser from late position.

I think that 88 is in his range, actually I fold this hand, so I have no idea what he had.
I would call in late position as well. I just think 3-betting from early position is more dangerous is all. I more or less would play the same way though except slightly tighter in the earlier positions.

When 3-betting later position opens, I think 3-betting JJ and TT is good. I usually don't 3-bet with TT though even BU vs. CO. Most people probably 3-bet both TT and 99 BU vs. CO. From the SB it is probably good not to have a calling range at all. From the BB you'll want to 3-bet a lot too including JJ and TT.
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