Hand was played late night/early morning @Aria Casino in Vegas a few days back. We are all about 200 bb deep

MP is 45 yo. woman. Has about 220 bb, massive loose fish.
MP+1 is a weakish player but not a total fool
Hero is HJ with Q7
BU is a bit of a cocky reg about 28 yo. He and his friend (SB) let everyone know they are regs minutes after sitting down.

Action goes like this:

MP limps, MP+1 limps, hero limps, BU raises to $40, everybody calls

Flop is QJ2 $165 in pot
Checked down

Turn is J $165 in pot
Check, check, hero bets $95, BU calls, fold, fold

River 8 $355 in pot
Here I'm against the reg and perhaps I make a blunder and check for some reason (Obviously value against Jx, lower flushes)
BU bets $800 and is all-in
Hero??

a) Fold pre
b) Check fold pre
c) I probably would never be in that spot, but if you get to that river, bet! If you get raised you should pretty clearly be behind, and you prevent to get bluffed as easily. He must be very ambitious to BLUFFRAISEJAM the river there (or VALUEJAM Jx there)...

Summary: a)>b)>>>>>>>c

if you play it the way you did, call and head over to the rebuy desk, or fold and wonder what would have been.

fold pre

also, there’s 2 Qs in the deck

+1

And they’re material to the hand. Do you have a flush, did you flop a pair and turn a draw to the 3rd nuts, or what? I’m folding here unless I’ve been being put in situations by villain regularly. Checking the river with the flush if that’s what you had is what put you in this difficult position.

It’s a limped, multiway pot, we’re playing vs a “reg”, and there are a ****load of hands that beat us. Some random QJ, J8 boats, Ax ♠️, Kx ♠️ often enough that there are probably better spots.

It’s one of those spots like you’ll feel like you made the wrong decision when you’ve made the right one, but then again gg hand selection.

Overlimp pre is probably fine.
As played, very easy fold against an 8x open.
as played, flop is good.
as played check turn. Looks to be your up against weak ranges, but if you get called, it´s likely Jx or a better Q. I guess you are tempted to bet after two checks in front of you, but if you get x/raised it sucks, if BU raises it sucks, if BU calls in position you´re in a guessing spot as well, not really knowing whether you made a valuebet or not. Perfect hand to c/c a bet from BU, it´s not a big problem if that gets checked around either.

As played, bet river.
As played, fold. Wtf line by him with probably precisely J8 or AsTs.

overall, you are button clicking.

If you have a flush there you have to call. As I write the post is unedited with 2 Q of spades, if you don't have a flush fold there.

I agree with the other posters, even for limping Q7 is too weak to call with, fold preflop.

Apologies, flop was QJ2 so I picked up a fd on the turn and hit it otr.

Tbh main reason to call pf was to be in the pot with the big fish. Obv if fish folds this is a fold. Raise might have been to 7bb too, can't remember.

you could raise yourself to isolate in that case. It´s a bit loose but probably ok as an exploit.

True. I remember considering it but the dynamic of the 2 regs 3betting me after me isolating the fish had already been established (since they started perceiving me as a TAG player). Perhaps better still than overlimping.

I am fine with the over-limp but would deffo fold to the raise (or 3!...calling seems really bad).

I Guess my q is why you didn't bet this flop? I think your hand is very under-repped now because you checked the flop so it makes the river decision that much more difficult. I might have bet $100 as V still has to worry about the two players behind him who checked so he is sort of forced to define a bit.

Only boat I can really see is 22 as you block some QJ hands with your holding. Would villain over shove a boat unless he really thought you had a flush? Most players would fold a naked Jack to that bet so that makes little sense to me. Spade wise, AK and AT make some sense although a reg would/should have raised your turn bet with those holdings.

Your line does not at all suggest you have a big hand that you will stack off with. Check flop/lead turn/check river smells of marginal and Villain will sense this which makes a bluff shove more likely IMO. My gut tells me this is not a shove for value but it really is going to come down to your read. AKx or ATx make the most sense to me so I probably find a call here.

Fold Pre.

I understand the logic of wanting to play many hands with the "big fish" as that gives you more chances to stack her or get doubled up. If that's the case, you should be entering the pots with raises in order to iso against Massive fish.

Limping a hand like Q7ss allows other players to enter the pot creating a multi-way pot. In this multi-way pot you have Q7ss, how much of an advantage do you think you have over the table to be able to profitably play Q7ss in a limped pot in middle position? The answer is probably not enough of an advantage to make this profitable, limping trash hands like this is just not profitable.

Now, you limped in for $5, and are facing a $40 button open in which 2 players flatted.
QUESTION: How much better than the rest of the table do you think you are to be able to flat this re-raise and make it a profitable play?
ANSWER: Correct answer is that you're not skilled enough to make this a profitable play, because realistically very few players are talented enough to play this hand in this spot profitably.

now back to the strategy of playing pots with the big fish. Don't lower your standards to much. The goal here is to isolate the fish either in position, with a better hand, or even both. Playing multi-way pots with 4 or more players with marginal hands that effectively can not make the nuts is going to lose you far more money in the long run to the rest of the table then you will win from the fish.

call, he has trips and thinks this is a value bet

I am interested in why you think villain is shoving for value here. In order to shove for value, doesn't it seem that V would have to believe that WE have a second best hand that we would be willing to call with? Given our play so far (limp/call, check flop , bet turn, check river), I don[t think we have shown any strength to this point that would give that indication.

I agree that we should call but more because I think (1) we are at the top of our range for how we played the hand and (2) this looks like a bluff shove to me to get us to fold medium hands like Jx or AQ/KQ.

Would love to hear you expand on your thoughts about why this is a value shove from V.

I agree with your point and changed my mind.
I also think it´s pretty unlikely he´s shoving for value, but then again, how likely is it that your typical 2/5 reg who normally just grinds his way to profit by b/folding to infinity suddenly finds his balls to bluff shove 800$ otr? Also, which hand does he check behind otf, calls a pretty big turn bet and now has not enough sdv to check behind? Most of the time, these people have exactly what they are repping in these spots, but it´s basically only two combinations...

I think it´s close. Would you ever c/ a fullhouse here, OP? If not, this is indeed most likely the strongest hand we ever have in this spot.

grunch. uhh, I guess we'll just ignore preflop... I'm assuming you got trashed for it in the preceeding 14 replies. It's pretty bad but probably not as bad as people think if everyone is truly 200 bbs deep.

I'm assuming the 2 is the spade, since you hold the Qs.

I'd rather bet/fold the river, but as played I'm snapping it off and feeling pretty good about it. You played the hand so meekly he should have very little reason to believe you have a hand that would call a 2.5x shove, unless you gave off some obvious tell before checking. I think this is going to be complete air a decent percentage of the time.

Yup. But guess what, he doesnt think like that. I've only encountered maybe 3 live players in my life from 1/3 to 2/5 that can process what a value bet really means. Most of them will jam J2o here because "hey i haz trips!". They just assume any big hand means a big bet.

I'm also going to disregard all preflop action/choice to voluntarily put chips in play with this hand -

As played, the villain doesn't have a ton of combos of hands that beat you. Maybe, KTss/T9ss/QQ/JJ? Far fewer of those combos compared to the hands that you crush. Also, unless this guy is aggro and a value god -- ain't nobody missing value by shoving river with those huge hands. Amirite?

Good point on reg finding balls to bluff shove 800. His line just seems so odd to me and OP said he was a cocky guy who told people he was a reg. So maybe he and his buddy usually play higher and are just slumming? I just don't think I am good enough to find a fold here given how the hand was played and how massively under-repped we are by the river. Might be a huge leak for me .

J2o would be a boat now but your point is well taken. 90%+ of the time at these limits, big bets deffo mean big hand. But given how under-repped we are, V could think AJ or KJ is a big hand here right? So maybe he thinks he is shoving for value against a weaker J or AQ/KQ and just hoping we call? I don't know but I hope OP posts results because this hand is really bugging me for some reason.

It’s really bugging me as well, because I’ve seen this move both live in online about a half a dozen times over the last four days… And 3/4 times the shove has come from a hand that was the stone cold nuts, And had gotten there in a weird way similar to how villain in this hand could’ve runner runnered the larger full house.

Results OP? Or pm me if u dont want to post? Still bugging me....

Yes, results please...

I was in a very similar situation last week. I called and beat trips. Would love to hear the result of yours.