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Old 05-04-2020, 01:17 PM   #1
okovenmitt
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2/4 facing turn jam

7-handed

villain (~$600, had been opening pretty wide) opens MP to $11. HJ calls, I'm $800 deep and make it $48 to go from the CO with QJhh.

villian calls, HJ folds. Pot is $113.

Flop: 3, 7h, J

villain checks, i bet $75, villain calls.

Turn: 6h

villain checks, i bet $135. villain jams.

What's the best play here, and what should I have done differently to this point.
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Old 05-04-2020, 11:03 PM   #2
Giannako.91
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Re: 2/4 facing turn jam

Preflop it s well played.
Now post OTF you can bet less like 1/3 IP especially you when you are 150 bb eff stack deep.
OTT you can bet half pot or 1/3 again but you can overbet like 150% pot too if you want to mix up your game a little bit.
As played personally i call obv against a guy with not so much info as you say he is just a wide openner.
QQ+ i guess he 4bets against a squeeze OOP, you block also JJ QQ.
Villain also can have AKhh,A5hh,89hh, 77 33 or a random hand like 45s. If he has QQ JJ so be it , its a cooler.
Tough spot but its a call imo and in the worst case scenario you ll have 25-30% equity.
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Old 05-05-2020, 10:39 PM   #3
ProfessorEd
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Re: 2/4 facing turn jam

Fold, I don’t think much different you can do. That’s poker. Just sometimes you’re beat

However, your hand can only get two streets of value imo so it’s flop
And turn or flop and river. And so this hand I much prefer bet flop, check turn, call/bet river
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Old 05-06-2020, 05:23 AM   #4
aner0
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Re: 2/4 facing turn jam

How do you fold with 13 "clean" outs and beating bluffs? with smaller than 30% pot odds
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Old 05-11-2020, 04:54 AM   #5
apricotjello
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Re: 2/4 facing turn jam

wp, nice call. sometimes youíre just behind here
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Old 05-22-2020, 01:56 AM   #6
andyyougoonie80
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Re: 2/4 facing turn jam

Ya call that shove!
Am I the only one who wants to sometimes flat pre? Seems like nice hand to take multiway and your position is a good one to defend a squeeze from.
With a 3Bet I would've $45 pre $40 flop and then $120 on the turn which should look strong and also sets up stacks.
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Old 06-04-2020, 12:07 AM   #7
okovenmitt
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Re: 2/4 facing turn jam

Thank you, all. I think flatting pre is fine, I wanted to take the initiative in position against a seemingly loose player (albeit a small ~300 hand sample size).

I think my c-bet on the flop was a little too heavy, but thatís besides the point. Facing these types of jams I always find myself making the wrong decision more often than not, and frustration has started to mount. Iím struggle with calculating my pot odds in quick manner given my opponents range. I called thinking I was most likely behind, but was getting great odds to call, with several clean outs.
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Old 06-09-2020, 11:26 AM   #8
Arsenal14
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Re: 2/4 facing turn jam

If hes the type that will call 3bets wide (could be the case based on your descrip), consider reducing 3bet frequency with hands like QJs. Otherwise you're building a big pot where you have an equity disadvantage since villain's likely calling with lots of broadways that have you crushed pre (AJ, KQ, KJ). In these types of spots, I'd rather just call with QJs and choose hands like 98s to 3bet/squeeze as my bluffs.

This way, you can avoid marginal spots later with a bloated pot and focus on attacking his looser preflop open range with stronger holdings.

As played tho, think its fine and def a river call. But agree that flop sizing is too big on this board.
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Old 06-12-2020, 07:59 PM   #9
ABCforME
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Re: 2/4 facing turn jam

Just use the rule of 2 and 4 to estimate your equity. Or if had 12 outs you are 12/46 to win with one card to go
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Old 06-12-2020, 11:37 PM   #10
Franchise804
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Re: 2/4 facing turn jam

Quote:
Originally Posted by okovenmitt View Post
Thank you, all. I think flatting pre is fine, I wanted to take the initiative in position against a seemingly loose player (albeit a small ~300 hand sample size).



I think my c-bet on the flop was a little too heavy, but thatís besides the point. Facing these types of jams I always find myself making the wrong decision more often than not, and frustration has started to mount. Iím struggle with calculating my pot odds in quick manner given my opponents range. I called thinking I was most likely behind, but was getting great odds to call, with several clean outs.
The reason they are frustrating spots is because you know you're behind but it's also a close decision based on the pot odds...but this is a result of you betting too big on the turn or, more likely, too big on the flop. In fact, I might go out on a limb and say that the bigger you bet with that hand on that flop, the lower EV it is.

Nothing wrong with building a pot by 3betting pre!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
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Old 06-18-2020, 02:42 AM   #11
Buyins
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Re: 2/4 facing turn jam

Rule of thumb is if you are in position and do not want to face a check raise with your hand to check back. I don't see you getting three streets here unless you improve on river, so a turn check back makes perfect sense to me.
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Old 06-18-2020, 07:02 AM   #12
RichGangi
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Re: 2/4 facing turn jam

I don't love the pf reraise, but flop and turn look fine. I'm happy b/c the turn here vs a loose villain.
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Old 06-18-2020, 07:04 AM   #13
RichGangi
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Re: 2/4 facing turn jam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buyins View Post
Rule of thumb is if you are in position and do not want to face a check raise with your hand to check back. I don't see you getting three streets here unless you improve on river, so a turn check back makes perfect sense to me.
If villain were tightish, I'd agree. That doesn't seem to be the case here though and our hand has too much value to check back imo.
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Old 06-24-2020, 08:39 PM   #14
lolposting2016
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Re: 2/4 facing turn jam

Pf is fine but you can’t do this every time
Flop sizing is really bad supposed to bet a lot smaller
Same with turn
As played calll now gl
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Old 06-25-2020, 07:16 AM   #15
RichGangi
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Re: 2/4 facing turn jam

Why do you think the flop bet is 'really bad'? How much smaller would you like there?

Also, the turn bet is ~half pot. I'm confused....
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Old 07-01-2020, 04:27 PM   #16
lolposting2016
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Re: 2/4 facing turn jam

1/4-1/3 is highest ev sizing - i guess really bad should be replaced with lower ev. These dry boards never get really used for the 75% size
Not to sound like a dick but if you are confused/and are playing poker regularly for any meaningful sum of $ you should buy pio and compare ev loss for the 75% vs the 33% sizing in some spots like this
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Old 07-01-2020, 04:31 PM   #17
lolposting2016
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Re: 2/4 facing turn jam

Ott- I’m not sure tbh. I think check works pretty well the 6 is pretty bad I think for the ip player and pretty good for the oop player. You’ll see pio check a lot of draws and akhh stuff like this in similar spots, but having top pair too makes me want to keep putting money in, I just don’t think you want to bet big cuz you just end up folding out everything worse and you have the hearts reducing his fd combos that wanna continue. So I think betting pretty small ott like for 1/4 pot or smth or just checking works pretty well. When u size up like this hands like p10s and what not are just going to be pure folds for the oop player - and then you end up getting x/r by all these sets and two pairs and Some rare 56hh or 5/6s with a bd that gets there ott. Also some slow played kk/aa -
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Old 07-02-2020, 03:44 AM   #18
apricotjello
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2/4 facing turn jam

Quote:
Originally Posted by lolposting2016 View Post
Ott- Iím not sure tbh. I think check works pretty well the 6 is pretty bad I think for the ip player and pretty good for the oop player. Youíll see pio check a lot of draws and akhh stuff like this in similar spots, but having top pair too makes me want to keep putting money in, I just donít think you want to bet big cuz you just end up folding out everything worse and you have the hearts reducing his fd combos that wanna continue. So I think betting pretty small ott like for 1/4 pot or smth or just checking works pretty well. When u size up like this hands like p10s and what not are just going to be pure folds for the oop player - and then you end up getting x/r by all these sets and two pairs and Some rare 56hh or 5/6s with a bd that gets there ott. Also some slow played kk/aa -
strong analysis but i also want to discuss flop sizing because we are 150bb deep to start the hand:

in general, pio seems to favor the IP player by increasing aggression with the initiative otf as stacks get deeper. intuitively, this makes sense as we need to pile more money in when weíre ahead and we get to attack often-capped ranges.

this board is difficult for pio as J73r is different from Jd 7s 3d for example. in both cases the IP player is allowed to do a lot of betting (at your preferred 30% sizing), but on J73fd the IP player will also have hands that like to bet 66%.

My conclusion from pio is that with a flush draw available to the player in position, we have enough hands to defend potential flop x/r that we can get away with betting 66%. we force a lot of folds when we have flush draws, whereas similar A-high hands often call on the rainbow board at any size (hence 66% not being worth it on that board) or the FD board at 33% size.

this is all to say: i agree with you and in practice iím betting <1/3 almost always
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