LA 10/20, 6-handed. I’m shot taking this game because there’s 2 big fish, but unfortunately the best player is to my immediate left. He covers my stack of $2400.

Folds to me OTB with 5h5d
I open to 60
V in SB 3-bets to 240, only I call

Flop (500): 8d 4d 4h
V bets 180, I call

Turn (860): Jd
V bets 430, Hero?

I think most players have a pretty polarized double barrel ranges, especially in 3b pots and on this specific turn. I can expect a river bet a large majority of the time, although I think he gives up with hands like QTcc, AhKc, any hands without a diamond blocker. I can also see him checking QQ/AJ OTR. Otherwise, he’s tripling flushes, boats, AA, KK, as well as his bluffs (Adx, KdQ, KdT, etc)

We’re obviously continuing all 4x, 88, and flushes, but we need t pick more hands against this V who’s betting turn at a pretty high frequency. I think this specific hand is a fold, but my question is are you calling with 77d, 99d? Do you prefer calling with pair+FD vs something like QJcc? We have more equity against his value range and comfortably call on more river with something like 99d.

You block some of his bluffs + have weak equity vs the ones you don’t. Pretty trivial fold OTT...


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got a diamond call

ya i’m folding turn pretty quick. Just have way better hands to call with, especially hands that beat the 8; (a8s and 99+, some nut FDs and pair + draw hands can call. maybe raise with weak combo draws and strong hands)

^ should have mentioned I’m also calling other 8x hands. 55-77 seem too weak

First thing to realize is villain will not have many flush draws on the turn, i.e. hands like AdXx or KdXx (other than AKo, AQo, KQo). If he has a diamond, he's likely going to have two of them. If he does have the AKo, AQo or KQo with one diamond, those still have good equity against a middling pair. For his other bluffs I'm thinking 65s, 76s, 9Ts, and maybe some Axhh hands (but probably not many of those, if any).

We should have plenty of flushes here and some 4x (admittedly, not many). We will also have AdJx and AdQx. I don't really think there is much pressure to be calling with these pocket pairs when we have better choices - without a diamond they unblock his flushes and block his straights and river is going to be a nightmare. Even if 9x9d hits a flush on the river you will be losing to almost all of his flushes, basically only beating 76dd and 65dd (which will check), and cant value bet. It simply is not a good situation in my view.

As far as which is better to call with 9x9d or QcJc, I think 9x9d as it blocks some of his flushes (I think 1-2 more than the 3 straight draws it also blocks). QcJc doesn't really block anything, and against a polarized range I would rather have the blockers than a hand with better absolute value.

P.S. By "LA" do you mean Commerce? If 5/10 at Commerce is your typical game, it is for me too.

fold pre.
we want to call off 10% of our stack to set mine vs the big fish not the best player in the game.
in these LA cash games it is totally fine to stay out of the way of the best reg and target the fish. if you are constantly showing down good hands vs the big fish or scooping pots without showing down at all he will likely show you respect and do the same thing to you and stay out of your way.
does stacking the best reg in an uncapped game give you significant advantage in the game moving forward? no he will just rebuy to cover you again and put you in even more treacherous spots now that you're playing even deeper and he has a skill edge on you. and you will make mistakes because you are shot taking and playing deep with scared money.

this is terrible advice lmao, don’t avoid someone just because they’re the best player at the table. OP never suggested they were playing w scared money, and to move up a properly rolled player will have to play against ppl better than them sometimes

What are you folding to his SB 3b if you call with 55..

It's actually not terrible advice. It's fairly indifferent advice. With a 3b this size considering stack size, it's almost an indifferent spot between calling and folding. And if he is playing scared against this player, it probably does push it over to a fold.

2 big fish in the $10/$20 commerce is uncommon now. preserving our stack to stay in the game and get in very high +EV spots against them is much more valuable than taking this spot. we've only put 3bb in the pot. there will be many more spots at this table where we open and get called by the fish with a much weaker range. we're in a very marginal spot at the bottom of our 3bet flat range. we're underrolled for the game and shot taking. this is a fold pre.

my issue wasn’t with the decisions in the hand, but the mentality approaching V.

assuming you will get outplayed in any borderline spot is defeatist and counterproductive to a winning session. if folding pre is the best decision, it should be a decision based off range / V tendencies rather than perceived skill differential

As for the HH, op could also easily have 77 here, 99-TT. I would call 99, TT, Jx hands w flush / no bluff blockers

I agree. I don't think I've actually ever made this fold in a cash game but I don't play much NL anymore. But in this specific situation it seems fine. I think how wide we're opening OTB here matters too. From a game theory scenario we also probably *want* 55 in our calling range. It's an interesting idea

Also sort of emphasizes why a smaller open OTB could be better, but that's a different theory question.

If this is all true then I think a smaller button raise is definitely better

I also think the point about not wanting to get extra deep against the best players in the game is worth considering.

Skill differential is a real thing though. If you assume you can show a profit playing 55 perfectly here then ok. But if villain is going to be stronger than you post flop (maybe just because your range is defined to him but his isn't to yours? Maybe because he has better reads or is better with bet sizing or more experienced/plays higher stakes? etc) then this *should* be factored in

I'm probably not folding but I wouldn't want to be in this spot playing with scared money ever, and his 3 bet range definitely matters when his 3B is that big

vs a 4x 3b with these stack sizes, against a good reg I'm just folding Pre. 55 is just a bit too weak for me.