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Old 11-10-2017, 12:46 PM   #51
TiltedDonkey
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Re: WTF do you people want?!?!

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Originally Posted by AllCowsEatGrass View Post
I think the people that are saying racism, sexism etc should be allowed should provide some concrete examples.
Concrete examples of what? Racist posts that should be allowed?
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Old 11-10-2017, 12:46 PM   #52
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Re: WTF do you people want?!?!

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Originally Posted by BoredSocial View Post
Dude you are seriously trolling in a thread about figuring out how to keep this forum alive? And you're a mod? You understand that your own posts in this thread are a perfect example of what people are complaining about?

You've been spending way too much time in politics. TS is a relatively minor racism offender. The worst things you're describing that he did were clearly tongue in cheek. His racism is that he doesn't believe racism is all that real. This comes from his background more than anything. He's also incredibly arrogant, which is the price you pay for dealing with extremely smart people. He does call people cucks, which lately seems to be his preferred form of trolling. He's getting less tolerant at the same time you are from the opposite direction.

Calling people 'casual racists' is pretty far out there dude. You need more than borderline posts to make it stick, and honestly it's the kind of name calling that is damaging the forum.

He's also the best content creator in BFI. If you don't want him in your subforum that's fine, but keep your hands off him in ours.
When David Sklansky is calling someone out for racism, yeah, you don't get to make the bolded claim.

Also, BFI is a very terrible forum in general, the truly useful posters in that subforum are nondescript posters giving people advice based upon business and investment math they provide. The rest of the forum is speculative garbo. So, congrats on TS for being king of a trash heap?
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Old 11-10-2017, 12:47 PM   #53
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Re: WTF do you people want?!?!

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Originally Posted by TiltedDonkey View Post
Concrete examples of what? Racist posts that should be allowed?

Yes.
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Old 11-10-2017, 12:49 PM   #54
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Re: WTF do you people want?!?!

Let's do Mat a favor and try to make this productive and not devolve into **** flinging.
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Old 11-10-2017, 12:51 PM   #55
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Re: WTF do you people want?!?!

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Originally Posted by Paul D View Post
Also, BFI is a very terrible forum in general, the truly useful posters in that subforum are nondescript posters giving people advice based upon business and investment math they provide. The rest of the forum is speculative garbo. So, congrats on TS for being king of a trash heap?
?

BFI seems fine, I've gotten useful financial advice from the regs. A little heavy on the cryptocoin evangelism and ofc the introduction of wil & TS was AIDS, but mostly it's on point.
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Old 11-10-2017, 12:52 PM   #56
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Re: WTF do you people want?!?!

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Originally Posted by AllCowsEatGrass View Post
Very good question.
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Originally Posted by TiltedDonkey View Post
Concrete examples of what? Racist posts that should be allowed?
I mean, I'm a bit concerned that this will start a huge derail, but for example I don't think that wil's posts re: transgender people should be bannable offenses in a politics forum.
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Old 11-10-2017, 12:53 PM   #57
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Re: WTF do you people want?!?!

I started posting on this forum, like, 10 years ago (dear god). During that time - things were just different. Poker was a big deal, the economy was super ****ty (so more people trying to make a go at a living using poker), and times were just... different.

Like, remember the big broohaha over Alan Dryer's rape log? And how it was a big debate if that **** should be kept in the forums or not? Imagine if someone made that thread today? Some of the people who defended it would be pretty ashamed of themselves in these current times. Like I said, things are different.
But on 2p2... they're not that different. I have long since stopped reading any other forum except for politics because the casual racism and sexism are pretty bothersome to me. Does that mean I want to impose my political beliefs on everyone else? No. Sometimes it's worth the discussion with someone with a different view point than me, often times it's really really not. So I stopped frequenting other sub-forums. If you're worried about readership, then there you go - my anecdote for why I contribute less to the site's traffic.

That all said, Mat, I think you need to stop being worried about being something to everyone. When you try to make everyone happy, then no one is happy. To that point, I don't think trying to balance between such polar political opposites is ever going to end well. So, imo, you need to take a stand. What do you want your forum, your brand to stand for? 2p2 isn't a democracy no matter how much you wish it was. It's your bottom line, and if you want more posters you should stop being wishy-washy in what you represent and just go for it. Because, as time goes on, you just end up shedding the moderately positioned posters in favor of more and more extremism.
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Old 11-10-2017, 12:53 PM   #58
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Re: WTF do you people want?!?!

That's not concrete. Are you referring to where he talked about assaulting trans women for taking a piss or .....
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Old 11-10-2017, 12:54 PM   #59
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Re: WTF do you people want?!?!

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Originally Posted by Victor View Post
given your previous posts, it seems you think that this happened in the Programming forum.

I went back and reread the threads and, unsurprisingly, you were called no such thing. not even by myself, who went hard at you in that thread.

anyway, relatedly, I think one of the biggest problems with this forum currently is the repeated lies and the distortion of the situation. you can see this Rafiki's posts and in mrbaseball's.
I didn't think anyone called him a racist for defending TS in the BFI threads either, which is what I thought he was referring to.
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Old 11-10-2017, 12:55 PM   #60
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Re: WTF do you people want?!?!

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Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson View Post
?

BFI seems fine, I've gotten useful financial advice from the regs. A little heavy on the cryptocoin evangelism and ofc the introduction of wil & TS was AIDS, but mostly it's on point.
In a perfect world it would be nothing but nondescript posters giving people advice based upon business and investment math.
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Old 11-10-2017, 12:58 PM   #61
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Re: WTF do you people want?!?!

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Originally Posted by AllCowsEatGrass View Post
That's not concrete. Are you referring to where he talked about assaulting trans women for taking a piss or .....
What? I mean if you want opinions on specific posts you are going to need to provide the post examples yourself. I don't feel like searching through threads to try to find like the most objectionable post I wouldn't delete.

It's a concrete example in that it's a discussion that actually happened and that you participated in. If I recall correctly, you wanted wil banned and/or his posts on the subject moderated/deleted. I did not and do not agree with this position.
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Old 11-10-2017, 01:02 PM   #62
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Re: WTF do you people want?!?!

I mean post something yourself. Like do you think talking about dragging ******s behind a truck via chain cause they looked at your white girfriend should be allowed, or maybe we shouldn't let Chinese foreign exchange students into America cause they'll muddy up the gene pool, or maybe because they just talk funny, or????

wil specifically stated he wanted to assault trans women for taking a piss. You fine with this, or????
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Old 11-10-2017, 01:03 PM   #63
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Re: WTF do you people want?!?!

No, I think those examples all pretty clearly fall into overt/extreme racism category. And I think you kind of knew that would be my response. So why did you use those examples?
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Old 11-10-2017, 01:04 PM   #64
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Re: WTF do you people want?!?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TiltedDonkey View Post
I mean, I'm a bit concerned that this will start a huge derail, but for example I don't think that wil's posts re: transgender people should be bannable offenses in a politics forum.

It's fighting word to act directly "supreme" and prejudiced towards transgender people as I witnessed in P7.

So what's the recourse for transgender posters facing such behavior?
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Old 11-10-2017, 01:05 PM   #65
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Re: WTF do you people want?!?!

Maybe just insta-ban anyone who posts sober.
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Old 11-10-2017, 01:07 PM   #66
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Re: WTF do you people want?!?!

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Originally Posted by TiltedDonkey View Post
No, I think those examples all pretty clearly fall into overt/extreme racism category. And I think you kind of knew that would be my response. So why did you use those examples?

I don't know where your line is, and you are the one saying some racism sexism etc should be allowed, so demonstrate where your line is with examples that cross and do not cross it.
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Old 11-10-2017, 01:07 PM   #67
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Re: WTF do you people want?!?!

Let TS back into BFI please.

If you want to be ban heavy in politics that's fine as that forum has been pure trash for a long time.
But don't do a site-wide ban, a lot of posters on 2+2 are great in one forum but awful in others (pretty much everyone in Politics).
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Old 11-10-2017, 01:08 PM   #68
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Re: WTF do you people want?!?!

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Originally Posted by spanktehbadwookie View Post
It's fighting word to act directly "supreme" and prejudiced towards transgender people as I witnessed in P7.

So what's the recourse for transgender posters facing such behavior?
To be fair, one of the problems with using this example is I can only comment on the posting as I remember them. There may have been some ban/mod-worthy post(s) I didn't see or don't remember.

That said, the recourse for posting you don't like is the same as it is for anyone else.
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Old 11-10-2017, 01:11 PM   #69
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Re: WTF do you people want?!?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllCowsEatGrass View Post
I don't know where your line is, and you are the one saying some racism sexism etc should be allowed, so demonstrate where your line is with examples that cross and do not cross it.
It's very difficult to try to come up with an example that is very close to the line while still definitely on one side of it. I still think a lot of wil's posts are pretty good examples.

Obviously something like this is discretionary.
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Old 11-10-2017, 01:12 PM   #70
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Re: WTF do you people want?!?!

First, I want to reiterate my pressing issue in different words. There seems to be a greater and greater call for people to be banned from the entire site over perceived bigotry.

I don't care when people want to confront someone over perceived bigotry. I don't care that the politics forum so tightly moderates for bigotry either. So this isn't about how that forum is run.

I use toothsayer as an example. The reason for his actual ban hasn't been explained yet to me. But for the purposes of this thread, let's just say he was banned for making multiple racist posts.










Quote:
Originally Posted by tomdemaine View Post
Mat,

Do you want business advice, moral advice or how do I shut these complainers up advice? It's 3 different solutions imo.
So, 1 and 2. Using the toothsayer example.
How does that ban affect business?
Was it just the right thing to regardless?
Not trying to shut people up today.


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Originally Posted by smoothcriminal99 View Post
I mean I think banning someone who doesn't agree with you has to be the worst way to validate your side... that is the whole argument behind free speech... I didn't really see him post anything racist but I didn't see all his posts. People got really offended by his post about poverty and poor people specifically in one thread but I think his views are shared by a large portion of the population on that front and were actually logically portrayed. This is the whole point of a forum is to discuss ideas in a civilized manner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllCowsEatGrass View Post
Let's do Mat a favor and try to make this productive and not devolve into **** flinging.

So, again. It's the calls to ban people outside of politcs for their politics I want to hear about. And maybe, hopefully, i'm wrong about it being such a big issue.

If everyone pretty much agrees that the individual forums can be treated independently, then there won't be many requests to ban people from the site, rather requests for exiles from specific forums. That's an easy thing to grant if a moderator asks.
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Old 11-10-2017, 01:16 PM   #71
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Re: WTF do you people want?!?!

Accusations of P being a lefty echo chamber are fair, unfortunately.

I want serious conservative posters in P instead of the bigots and trolls who turn up and sooner or later get banned for racism.
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Old 11-10-2017, 01:16 PM   #72
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Re: WTF do you people want?!?!

Mat, since it seems like Zeno banned Toothy (could be wrong but guessing from what I can pick up in the clues that have been sprinkled around) I highly doubt he got banned for bigotry or racism.
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Old 11-10-2017, 01:17 PM   #73
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Re: WTF do you people want?!?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TiltedDonkey View Post
It's very difficult to try to come up with an example that is very close to the line while still definitely on one side of it. I still think a lot of wil's posts are pretty good examples.

Obviously something like this is discretionary.

I just find it interesting that you think such bigotry should be allowed but yet you cannot provide a single example of a post that should be allowed. Are you sure you want to stick with your position?
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Old 11-10-2017, 01:19 PM   #74
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Re: WTF do you people want?!?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmo View Post
I started posting on this forum, like, 10 years ago (dear god). During that time - things were just different. Poker was a big deal, the economy was super ****ty (so more people trying to make a go at a living using poker), and times were just... different.

Like, remember the big broohaha over Alan Dryer's rape log? And how it was a big debate if that **** should be kept in the forums or not? Imagine if someone made that thread today? Some of the people who defended it would be pretty ashamed of themselves in these current times. Like I said, things are different.
But on 2p2... they're not that different. I have long since stopped reading any other forum except for politics because the casual racism and sexism are pretty bothersome to me. Does that mean I want to impose my political beliefs on everyone else? No. Sometimes it's worth the discussion with someone with a different view point than me, often times it's really really not. So I stopped frequenting other sub-forums. If you're worried about readership, then there you go - my anecdote for why I contribute less to the site's traffic.

That all said, Mat, I think you need to stop being worried about being something to everyone. When you try to make everyone happy, then no one is happy. To that point, I don't think trying to balance between such polar political opposites is ever going to end well. So, imo, you need to take a stand. What do you want your forum, your brand to stand for? 2p2 isn't a democracy no matter how much you wish it was. It's your bottom line, and if you want more posters you should stop being wishy-washy in what you represent and just go for it. Because, as time goes on, you just end up shedding the moderately positioned posters in favor of more and more extremism.
Quite right. However, it is threads like this help us make the final decisions.
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Old 11-10-2017, 01:20 PM   #75
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Re: WTF do you people want?!?!

Can someone, maybe the relevant mod, post the specific TS posts since he is our example?
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